CVL's

[Black_Shade]

You should really gain a blueprint for CVLs when you research CVs of similar year. Currently, there is almost no point in researching CVLs at all, as the CLs of the same year are far superior in literally every category except naval detection (they are better at fighting ships, subs, aircraft, which is pretty much everything). The ONLY use i could even think of for a CVL is for sea detection values, since CLs are better in every single category that you would use a CVL for, including sub and air detection. It might be nice if your carrier research gave a blueprint for CVL research, to give insentive to research these CVLs. Who wants to take up a tech slot for 4+ months to research something that you have situtional use at best for, when you could research something like a new land doctrine/infantry model (since the CVLs research years always come up at the same time as these important techs).

 

[Mork]

You completely fail to see what CVLs are there for. But don't worry, you are not the first.
They will never compete with CVs, they are inferior, that's the point. They are CV *light*.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244561

Spruce shows a way to use the CVLs.
They are very good as a support to BBs. They are also vey good as a sub hunter.

What makes them useful is the smaller cost.

 

[Black_Shade]

You completely fail to see what CVLs are there for. But don't worry, you are not the first.
They will never compete with CVs, they are inferior, that's the point. They are CV *light*.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244561

Spruce shows a way to use the CVLs.
They are very good as a support to BBs. They are also vey good as a sub hunter.

What makes them useful is the smaller cost.

i didnt say CVs in my post. I said CLs. You know light cruisers? Those are better in every way compared to CVLs, is what my point was, and you need them for escorts. CL doesnt = Cv. CLs are better against sea, air, and subs than CVLs, and are cheaper to build, and faster to build. So why would anyone build CVLs, other than 1 for sea detection at best? Seems like wasted research to me.

 

[Mork]

Right... Sorry.

Well, sub attack, firing range, and that they increase in value more than the CLs.

 

[Black_Shade]

Right... Sorry.

Well, sub attack, firing range, and that they increase in value more than the CLs.

increase the value of the CLs how? The CLs of equal year have higher values/equal values in the following:

1) air attack
2) sub attack
3) sea attack
4) sub detection
5) air detection
6) speed- offsets the small range bonus the CVLs have (i believe the 1941 version has 40 range, while the 1941 CL has 30 range, but the CL is 4 km faster, closing that gap rather quickly).
7) IC cost
8) Build time

The only value where teh CVL has an advantage:

1) sea detection.

thats it. nothing else. So why waste time researching this when something thats REQUIRED for your fleets (escorts) are better than this in almost every way?

 

[Mork]

WHat kind of ships are you looking at?
For example, a CL-4 has a sub attack of 2, while a CVL-1 has a sub attack of 6. 3 times the amount.

 

[unmerged(56406)]

According to the HOI2 naval FAQ, the most important thing: Positioning.

 

[Black_Shade]

WHat kind of ships are you looking at?
For example, a CL-4 has a sub attack of 2, while a CVL-1 has a sub attack of 6. 3 times the amount.

CL 5 v. CVL 3

Sea attack: 10-2
Air attack: 10-9
Sub attack: 3-10 <----------- ok i was incorrect on this statement.
Sub detection: 10-7
Air Detection: 7-6
Sea Detection: 2-10

edit: the cost of CLs is also higher than that of CVLs, something i was also incorrect about. CLs are roughly 1.75 the IC cost of CVLs. However, CVLs take twice as long to build as CLs, so total IC cost in terms of IC days (ICcostx number of days to build) still favors the CLs.

so basically, the CL is weaker against subs attack wise, but also has a higher detection bonus. Throw in a few DD4-5's (you start with at least lvl 3 researched as most major powers), this advantage for CVLs goes away. The point is, the research for CVLs seems wasted, since cheaper ships that are REQUIRED for your fleet to be succesful to the job better in most areas. Im assuming the positioning bonus is factored in with the increased detection, but if you have researched your doctrines and are using an admiral with >3 skill (every major naval power has at least a dozen of these), then this bonus is also debatable as well.

The only point for a navy is to use as a spearhead for land invasions, if you can get the job done easily without CVLs because there are many alternatives that are actually required for your fleets, why spend the time to research them? Thats my idea behind the giving a blueprint for the CVL for CV research of the similar year- to make CVLs a time/cost effective alternative. Currently they dont seem worth it.

 

[Mork]

While I agree that CVLs are a bit underpowered, you are missing two things, one firing range, this is probably the most important stat as it determines when a ship can fire, and two positioning.
Both are better than in a CL. (in general)

 

[Permanganate]

I can't find any good reasons to build CVLs. I can find uses for CVLs if I start with them, but what's the point of researching or building more, when I could be mass producing more DDs and CVs? CVLs as transport escorts seemed to have promise, but they can't seem to keep enemy battleships out of range. As for their stats, Air Attack on land/sea units doesn't do much, and I don't need CVLs to find and sink SS; Doomsday SS have no hope against any of my DD-screened combat or transport fleets and I can divert a few DD (with Nav spotters) to beat them up if they're annoying my convoys. I'm already researching and building DD and Nav, so diverting a few to an ASW team for a while is very cheap.

 

[Black_Shade]

While I agree that CVLs are a bit underpowered, you are missing two things, one firing range, this is probably the most important stat as it determines when a ship can fire, and two positioning.
Both are better than in a CL. (in general)

firing range is irrelevent (basically). A CVL only has 10-15 KM more range, but the CL is 4 km faster, it will close this gap in 3 hours at worst, if not sooner. Positioning bonus might be helpful, but i wouldnt consider it worth delaying other more important techs for. The main issue is, given the years that the CVLs techs are (36/39/41/43, etc), they coincide exactly with things like new infantry techs, new land doctrine techs, etc. The only year that i would consider researching them is in 36, since you often have few techs to research then.

Now if i had a blueprint, i might research them because they go by quickly, but otherwise Im not going to put energy into something that I most likely wont need. Now where you can get a blueprint from is up for debate, as i believe most CVLs were refitted cruisers/large civilian ships. As of now though, the benefits of using a CVL are outweighed by their research cost. You dont even need your navy to win the fight- you just need your navy to be able to survive long enough to get your land divisions ashore. Once thats done your navy serves no purpose, otherthan to protect convoys, but since convoy raiding is horribly underpowered at the moment, this is also pointless. It is only there for a distraction for your landing craft, nothing more, and devoting resources to something thats use is debatable just doesnt make sense.

 

[unmerged(17563)]

With a skilled Admiral and good positioning the firing range advantage of the CVL can win an engagement without even allowing the enemy to fire. I use CVL in MP games in the following stack 4 xType 2-3 CVL, 2 x Type 3 CA and 24 x Type 4-5 DD. These stacks are devastating vs subs, frequqnelty it takes the enemy sub stack about 12 hours to close to their range and by that time they have been beaten up by the CVLs, usually they lose 4-5 and lose org. Never underestimate the range factor especially against slow moving naval units like subs.

 

[unmerged(13991)]

I agree with the idea to get the blue prints.

I modded nat spain to research CVL (modded also the AI to made them build eventually 4 of them if they ever got the IC for that), and as Germany I can get those blue prints. I supposed if Franco decided to have some planes naval platforms (at least to move planes from one Islands to another) like the Bearn was used IRL by the french, it would have been CVL/CVE only. In all my games I annex Spain and then release then at nat spain in april 36 ( made by mai 1936), to benefit of the 3 tech slots and the 20 MOUNT they will build.

Another mod I did was to convert the Bearn to CLV lvl 3 (that what it was in fact, because as CV it was totally useless and existed only for testing purpose, for researching the future french CV design).