Current division Meta?

[shadowpho]

It's been several hours of my trying to find a way to respond to this, and I still have no idea what to say.

IMHO it’s far more important to have enough defense divisions for the whole front and proper armor attack units for attacking.

I use 35ish defense and 30 attack width template. I like bigger divisions as it’s easier to manage. It works great against expert AI or Germany max buffed.

It’s a much more critical item to have enough fuel, guns, and fighters/etc.
If you run out of infantry equipment or guns or replacement trucks/tanks the front will start to lose.

Oh and it’s important to have both a defense and offensive unit. Pushing with infantry leads to high losses and few encirclements.

 

[Cavalry]

Your 5x22 total was 1358 attacks, wasn't it? 5x18 was 1665, which is 22.6% higher.

The operative mechanism here is that it is only the line infantry battalions that add to the width, but the resulting width penalty lowers the attacks the supports offer. Since the lions share of the attacks for these templates are going to be coming from the support companies instead of the width (especially with the trinity), that penalty is going to be hurting your damage output. Using the same sort of pure inf templates in the 90w scenario, even 30w ends up with more attacks in total than the 22w 30w are 105 each 315 total, 22w being 54.27 each, 271.35 total. For comparison, 18w would be 345.

So it looks like a micro control 18w tank is better in open terrain than 21w without Encirclement. If that is very good then we can always micro 21w to 4x21=84w and have only -7% vs 5*18=90. And we need to compare 18w vs 10w, 15w etc...

In defense or automatic battle plan, we cannot choose over width or not with 18w. But at least a group of 18w has more total Org than 21w anyway.

For just me, I am looking at a tank division at 15w to be able to use as both attack or defending in the next game (defend is needed in early hard games) It is still get 6x15=90w. Though with so many small divisions, one can get tired with those micro and just want to throw all of them at enemy. The effect of Encirclement is still not measured and should not to be ignored.

 

[Maxwell Tornado]

It's been several hours of my trying to find a way to respond to this, and I still have no idea what to say.

Oh well. Thanks for your explanations, at least.

 

[Andrew0Red]

Width 101:
Combat width and division width is just one of many aspeces of combat.

• No single aspect of war can win you the war, no matter how well you do it.
• On the other hand, any single aspect can lose you the war, if you do it bad enough.

Width 102:
If you're not going to have 40 or so battalions per province in the "Schwerpunkt", then you don't need to worry about width.
(For MP, that is usually crucial, but for SP ... meh.)

Width 103:
In general, smaller divisions are better for defense, larger are better for offense. (Say, 15-22w for def, 25-38w for off.)
Smaller divisions means more divisions, which means more organisation, which means staying in the fight longer, dealing more damage, breaking more of the enemies.
When attacking, however, the battle should be over long before we are near breaking, so organisation is less needed. Attacking with larger divisions tends to decrease losses.

Width 201, &c: Left to others.

 

[Cavalry]

Width 103:
In general, smaller divisions are better for defense, larger are better for offense. (Say, 15-22w for def, 25-38w for off.)
Smaller divisions means more divisions, which means more organisation, which means staying in the fight longer, dealing more damage, breaking more of the enemies.
When attacking, however, the battle should be over long before we are near breaking, so organisation is less needed. Attacking with larger divisions tends to decrease losses.

This is not true, especially in previous DLC. A defender is often much weaker than the attacker and should have some cost efficiency to boost. More division for more Org is right but it is disminissing return over 4 division.

A defense template should achieve enough defense stats, before other stats. The quick rule is the width of the defender should have at least half of the attackers. In this DLC should be between 15-21 to be safe. Otherwise you get high casualties in both manpower and equipment.

 

[Andrew0Red]

This is not true

(Say, 15-22w for def,

In this DLC should be between 15-21 to be safe.

Uhmm, am I missing something?? We both want almost the same width for defensive divisions...


That defense is the important stat is of course true, but seeing as defensives tend to be cheap, newbies tend to use lots of infantry in them, doing that correct without even thinking about - naïvety for the win!
@beginners: 6-9 infantry and 0-1 artillery, supported by engineers and support artillery is a good defender.... but you also need to consider a) having enough of them, b) what the air situation is, c) your ability to produce the gear needed for these, your offenders, your airwings and your logistics, d) how much supply will be available, e) whether they will attack you or you have to do it, f) what your offensive divisions will be ... in short, there's a LOT to winning a war.

 

[Cavalry]

That defense is the important stat is of course true, but seeing as defensives tend to be cheap, newbies tend to use lots of infantry in them, doing that correct without even thinking about - naïvety for the win!

In previous DLC there is often a mistake try to use 20w infantry to defend against 40w tank. In this DLC, thing is more easy for smaller templates, but go 10w for defend is often not enough.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Smaller divisions means more divisions, which means more organisation, which means staying in the fight longer, dealing more damage, breaking more of the enemies.

The part of this I start to disagree with, is dealing more damage and breaking more of the enemies. More formations also means attacks are going to have a tendency to be spread out more evenly across all targets, which means more of the defense stats get activated and there is less of a chance of overwhelming the defense to actually deal amplified damage.

More division for more Org is right but it is disminissing return over 4 division.

I'm not really sure how you start to get diminishing returns past 4 formations? Lack of defense would only ever result in suffering 4x the damage, which would cut your e-org. It won't ever reach 4x damage because we'd always have at least some defense. Since org per formation can largely be considered the same, as long as we have at least 4x the formations we otherwise would, we still end up with more e-org. The difference being that we don't have the defense to protect the HP.

 

[JScott991]

I was going to throw this in a different thread, but this seems on topic enough. I'm coming back to the game and playing Kaiserreich (not the base game) and trying to figure out what ideal divisions are. Previously, I was using 40w Infantry (14-4 Inf to ART, I think) and 40w light and medium tanks divisions (I think 15-5 Tank/MOT or MEC). I hadn't changed those designs in years.

What would be ideal now? Are 28w Infantry divisions really better than 40w? What's the ideal mix of INF to Art in a template? What's the ideal mix of Tanks to Motorized in a Tank division?

Thanks!

 

[Corpse Fool]

I was going to throw this in a different thread, but this seems on topic enough. I'm coming back to the game and playing Kaiserreich (not the base game) and trying to figure out what ideal divisions are. Previously, I was using 40w Infantry (14-4 Inf to ART, I think) and 40w light and medium tanks divisions (I think 15-5 Tank/MOT or MEC). I hadn't changed those designs in years.

What would be ideal now? Are 28w Infantry divisions really better than 40w? What's the ideal mix of INF to Art in a template? What's the ideal mix of Tanks to Motorized in a Tank division?

Thanks!

Depends what sorts of widths and such that mod uses.

 

[JScott991]

Depends what sorts of widths and such that mod uses.

I don't think it changes those.

 

[Andrew0Red]

What would be ideal now? Are 28w Infantry divisions really better than 40w? What's the ideal mix of INF to Art in a template? What's the ideal mix of Tanks to Motorized in a Tank division?

Let's look at attack, defense and mixed.


Attack: Wide divisions still take less losses ... but medium and narrow are more likely to win, since they have more total organisation present. As you're a human, your attackdivisions are unlikely to ever be in a losing battle, so go wide.

How wide? Well, if you know ahead of time which terrain the crucial battle will take place in, you can *really* optimise width. If not, it seems 42-45w give more stats on average, especially if you can trigger the encirclement tactic (name?). (Personally, I'd go for 38w because I like cost-efficiency to a fault.)

As for composition, it's the same as always: More foot/mtd/mot/mech infantry gives more org, allowing you to fight longer, thus increasing your chance of winning. It also gives more HP, which, afaik, lessens material losses. On the other hand, more tanks/art means more dmg and a shorter fight ... as long as you don't run out of org. 50%-50% seems common these days, though I think up to 75%-25% sees some use too, though only for larger divions.

Are flame-tanks a recent addition? Certainly use them. Also, signaling is supposed to help with coordination: divisions now spread their attack around, but coordination from tech and Signal Support is supposed to help them foucs somewhat on one target (like 50% targetted damage and 50% spread evenly).
(@beginners: Be sure to include maintenance and flame-tanks in all tank divisions. Often you will want logistics too, since tanks tend to concentrate, thus exhausting supply locally.)


Defense: Usually, defenders are not overpowering their enemy, so stamina matters a lot more. 15-22w is common, but the lower ones only with air-superiority and plenty of CAS.

Composition-wise, 7 inf to 2 art maximises dmg done before breaking, but support artillery will change that balance. 1 Line Artillery + 6-9 Infantry, supported by Eng + SuppArt + SuppRockArt should be close to optimal (though equipping both a flame-tank and scout-tank with dozer-blades is fun ).


Mixed: I'd go for around 25-26w for divions that may end up in either role, such as dragoons following behind tanks and inf-for-mopping-up-kettles, though I suspect others will go up to 28w. I've heard 25 is a local optimum for a weighed average.

 

[JScott991]

Do people really use 50% ART divisions? That's one I hadn't heard of. A long article on steam suggested 4 INF to 1 ART is the best ratio.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Do people really use 50% ART divisions? That's one I hadn't heard of. A long article on steam suggested 4 INF to 1 ART is the best ratio.

Depends what your goals are, higher concentrations of artillery do give you more attacks that can push the enemy out of the way sooner, but their low org doesn't let them push very far and you need a large force to cycle with, and their low HP means these sorts of offensive aren't very sustainable. 7/2-ish types with a higher attacks*org might be slower, but they also need less support.

 

[Andrew0Red]

Do people really use 50% ART divisions? That's one I hadn't heard of. A long article on steam suggested 4 INF to 1 ART is the best ratio.

What Corpse Fool said.

But artillery and infantry is cheap, tanks are expensive. Building 50-50 art+inf costs a lot less than 50-50 tank+___ inf, yet gives similar damage.
Compared to 4:1, 50-50 has maybe 1.58 times more dmg, 1.58 times less HP and a little more breakthrough, so losses are a little lower - in percent. That means fewer men and more pieces lost.

As for unsustainable, I honestly don't know. Compared to 4:1s, 50-50s have a different loss ratio; in the long run, you have endless factory output but finite manpower, so 50-50 is better that way; in the short run ... lives and infantry equipment are much cheaper than artillery pieces, sadly.

Compared to tanks, 50-50 art-inf loses more men but less material. And if you didn't have to make that trade-off, you wouldn't be attacking without tanks in the first place.

(If you're not adverse to it, mixing tanks, artillery and infantry is more powerfull. Maybe 16-33-50?)

 

[JScott991]

In Kaiserreich, it's very difficult to rely on tanks as your main offensive force (particularly as Austria, who does its heaviest fighting in Northern Italy and Southern France, which aren't that conducive to tanks anyway). So a lot of attacks are done with infantry.

I don't think I have the courage to do 50:50. I'd love to someday have divisions that "melt" AI units (despite trying to stay up on Meta, I've never seen this happen, even during the old Space Marine days).

 

[Cavalry]

I'm not really sure how you start to get diminishing returns past 4 formations? Lack of defense would only ever result in suffering 4x the damage, which would cut your e-org. It won't ever reach 4x damage because we'd always have at least some defense. Since org per formation can largely be considered the same, as long as we have at least 4x the formations we otherwise would, we still end up with more e-org. The difference being that we don't have the defense to protect the HP.

If you have 4 div, when 1 div out of Org, you still have 3 Div=75% front force, to stay for reinforcement. That's good enough. The total manpower/IC available to defender is the same, if we use 6 x10 div instead of 4x15w, then there is a chance that the defense stat per each div is too small and get crit damage.

That is in the case of availble reinfore. 6x 10 div will hold longer than 4x15w with no reinforcement, at the cost of more casualties.

 

[TalyonUngol]

Definetely agree. I watched all his videos in these threads, I see, how he and community try to find the most optimal meta in some combat width, but I respect him, that he admits that nobody knows the proper numbers. In his video about 10-width + CAS spam results was OK, but not so great and with fully respect - I think he could make better results with any different divisions.

After many playtroughs, successfully and failed campaings my opinion is, that something like current meta in the sense of the former division 10/20/40 does not exist anymore. Almost everything (for me: between 20 - 30 and some few smaller) could work fine. And I agree that in some specific terrain type (like desert in North Africa) exists one proper division type. But in other places I recommend two approaches:

1. Take care of Your support companies. I'm not a number guy, so it is hard to say for me, if it was changed something or no, but oh God - especially divisions with support flame tanks, rocket artillery and AA are almost unstopable.
2. Choose Your divisions type depending on Your main enemies. For example, I have noticed, that in early - mid game 21 combat width are working fine against Allies. Against German: it is more complicated, they like to do 27 combat width with some support. I throw against them 27 or 30 combat width divisions with more soft attack ant breakthrough thanks doctrines, support companies and army spirits. Versus Soviet Union and Italy everything works fine. Against Japan and USA I haven't fight a lot yet since NSB realised, so it is hard for me to say something more.

This is for attacking. If You want to defence Yourself - 10, 15, 18, 20 combat width will be working fine. Probably 20 combat width divisions will be the best option, because it gives opportunity to change it very quickly for something more decent.

So regarding flame tanks, how does one really create a good flame tank for support companies or is just cheapest better as its all one flat stat?

 

[TalyonUngol]

Lot of focus on division templates and tank design but I'm a bit curious of just how much war material you go to war with. I agree ant-air artillery was probably a waste. Did it leave you enough other stuff? I know my post is a bit old now, but I can't imagine numbers are too far off. How does your equipment compare to what I posted some time ago here?:

Germany Pre-war Buildup

Hey everyone. Long time reader of these forums. Long time player of the HOI series, played all of them. First time poster. Been awhile since someone posted a Germany guide and was kind of curious how other players have guided the most popular...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Hey, sorry for not answering. I wasn't getting messages that this thread was still open lmao.

As for my pre war material, in general, I am plus in -everything- I have, because I dont build planes in any sort of 20 factory plan. I tend to just focus on the core of support, guns, arty, AA, trucks, light tanks and medium tanks. I tend to just focus on that because planes, for me, dont work out if you actually want a decent army to start with. I want usually 4 full stacks of infantry, maybe even 5, with 2 lights and 2 mediums. Possibly even 4 light tanks.

And this is usually with engineers and support arty and support AA for support companies to start the war.

 

[Cavalry]

So regarding flame tanks, how does one really create a good flame tank for support companies or is just cheapest better as its all one flat stat?

Flame tank get full bonuse of the vehicle, if you use medium tank then it is 15/50= 30% stats of a medium tank battalion, 25% stats of light tank battlalion, plus the flame support modifiers.
So use whatever you want. A option is to use the obsolete light tank chassis, so you can convert old tank or use the old factories. But if you want a little "cheat" then use heavy tank. You get the full armor stat with just 15 heavy tank.