Cultures - READ FIRST POST AND USE ONLY THIS THREAD!

[Calgacus]

The borders Berwick and Galloway nobles CANNOT be English in 1066 (they aren't even english in England!).

So they have to be either 'Saxon' (which is possible, they were heavily influenced by the English Saxon court and from Northumbria) or a 'seperate tag' (i.e. 'scottish' as it stands).

It isn't perfect. I have always agreed on having 'scottish' as 'scots gaelic' while having the court norman or english in later scenarios. But I have a feeling (as before) it will not be accepted. (boo hiss).

So the only other alternative I could see was combining 'Irish' and Gaelic into one culture and expanding it over into Scotland (and expanding the Irish list accordingly).

I will freely admit that I have been conservative with the placement of the Gaelic culture in Scotland.

If I thought your proposal would be accepted, I would certainly back it (Can we have some comment from the powers-that-be?) But I tried to compromise and come up with a system that would be acceptable off the bat (namely, I wanted Gaelic in Scotland as it rightfully should) and having something (the existing Anglified-Gael Scottish list) as the Anglified 'Scots'.

EDIT: you may wish to look at my proposals in the 'Scenario changes' thread here in the BETA forum as well

Ayeshteni

Our suggestion makes perfect historical and gameplay sense. I don't see why anyone would object. If the two Gaelic cultures are merged, then the free tag should go to somewhere that needs it (e.g. the Permains, Khazars, Sards, etc), not a tiny Anglo-Scottish culture which has little relevance to the period, and which is easily represented by English/Saxon culture.

 

[Drachenfire]

updated Breton name list, still some are a bit too Frankish

celtic;female;Adela
celtic;female;Agnez
celtic;female;Anjela
celtic;female;Anna
celtic;female;Aouregan
celtic;female;Aourell
celtic;female;Argentael
celtic;female;Arzhela
celtic;female;Bartez
celtic;female;Brenda
celtic;female;Brevalen
celtic;female;Deneza
celtic;female;Elena
celtic;female;Eliboubaba
celtic;female;Eliza
celtic;female;Elesbed
celtic;female;Enora
celtic;female;Eva
celtic;female;Franseza
celtic;female;Guoulvena
celtic;female;Gwen
celtic;female;Gwenola
celtic;female;Gwenvred
celtic;female;Hoela
celtic;female;Janed
celtic;female;Jakeza
celtic;female;Jenovefa
celtic;female;Juliane
celtic;female;Katell
celtic;female;Keridwen
celtic;female;Karidwen
celtic;female;Maela
celtic;female;Mevanwi
celtic;female;Morgana
celtic;female;Morwenna
celtic;female;Ninnog
celtic;female;Nolwenn
celtic;female;Laoransa
celtic;female;Loeiza
celtic;female;Madalem
celtic;female;Magdalene
celtic;female;Marc’harid
celtic;female;Mari
celtic;female;Matilin
celtic;female;Marzhina
celtic;female;Mikaela
celtic;female;Mona
celtic;female;Oanez
celtic;female;Onenn
celtic;female;Riwanon
celtic;female;Rozenn
celtic;female;Susanne
celtic;female;Tedvil
celtic;female;Tekla
celtic;female;Trifin
celtic;female;Uriell
celtic;female;Ysabelle
celtic;female;Youenna
celtic;male;Alberzh
celtic;male;Alan
celtic;male;Alan
celtic;male;Alan
celtic;male;Alan
celtic;male;Alwena
celtic;male;Andrev
celtic;male;Anton
celtic;male;Aodren
celtic;male;Arzhur
celtic;male;Baldoen
celtic;male;Benabic
celtic;male;Benoni
celtic;male;Bernez
celtic;male;Beltram
celtic;male;Brandon
celtic;male;Brevalaer
celtic;male;Brient
celtic;male;Daniel
celtic;male;Devi
celtic;male;Charlz
celtic;male;Denic
celtic;male;Edern
celtic;male;Edouarzh
celtic;male;Erwan
celtic;male;Eneour
celtic;male;Ewen
celtic;male;Fransez
celtic;male;Fulup
celtic;male;Fragan
celtic;male;Gregor
celtic;male;Gwenole
celtic;male;Gwenole
celtic;male;Gweltaz
celtic;male;Gwilherm
celtic;male;Gwezhenneg
celtic;male;Guyomarch
celtic;male;Herri
celtic;male;Hoél
celtic;male;Hoél
celtic;male;Hoél
celtic;male;Hoél
celtic;male;Ilan
celtic;male;Ildut
celtic;male;Jaoua
celtic;male;Jafrez
celtic;male;Jakez
celtic;male;Jalm
celtic;male;Jermen
celtic;male;Jehan
celtic;male;Jilberzh
celtic;male;Jili
celtic;male;Jozeb
celtic;male;Jord
celtic;male;Judikael
celtic;male;Kadvalaer
celtic;male;Karadeg
celtic;male;Konan
celtic;male;Konan
celtic;male;Konan
celtic;male;Konan
celtic;male;Koneg
celtic;male;Kongar
celtic;male;Konwoion
celtic;male;Koulizh
celtic;male;Klaoda
celtic;male;Kristoc’h
celtic;male;Laorans
celtic;male;Loeiz
celtic;male;Lukaz
celtic;male;Maeog
celtic;male;Mael
celtic;male;Maelog
celtic;male;Meogon
celtic;male;Meriadeg
celtic;male;Morvan
celtic;male;Marc
celtic;male;Marzhin
celtic;male;Mazhe
celtic;male;Mikael
celtic;male;Nikolaz
celtic;male;Paol
celtic;male;Padern
celtic;male;Padrig
celtic;male;Per
celtic;male;Renan
celtic;male;Riaged
celtic;male;Riwall
celtic;male;Ronan
celtic;male;Roparzh
celtic;male;Seog
celtic;male;Sian
celtic;male;Stefen
celtic;male;Tomaz
celtic;male;Treveur
celtic;male;Tudeg
celtic;male;Tudual
celtic;male;Vinsant
celtic;male;Yann
celtic;male;Youenn

 

[unmerged(21937)]

A Celtic tag can't go too far from the Celts. However, wasn't there a distinct pattern of naming in Anglo-Scottish circles that would have differed from the southern Anglo naming or did they use the same kind of naming?

 

[Calgacus]

A Celtic tag can't go too far from the Celts. However, wasn't there a distinct pattern of naming in Anglo-Scottish circles that would have differed from the southern Anglo naming or did they use the same kind of naming?

Virtually identical naming; obviously the names of Scottish kings had an effect; thus there were more Alexanders and Roberts amongst the later medieval Scoto-English than the English proper; but that, aside from the expected Gaelic borrowings, just about sums up the tiny differences. Tags are needed elsewhere.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Virtually identical naming; obviously the names of Scottish kings had an effect; thus there were more Alexanders and Roberts amongst the later medieval Scoto-English than the English proper; but that, aside from the expected Gaelic borrowings, just about sums up the tiny differences. Tags are needed elsewhere.

Yes, like Mannin, Orkney, Dublin, and the Western Isles.






As for Non-Gaelic Scottish naming conventions, check out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Mar (Keep in mind that this region is heavily Lallans, despite being in northern Scotland.)

Also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Crawford, located in the Lowlands.

In the CK time period, they had two Alexanders (not in the English list) and three David's (In the English list only once, whereas Henry is in the English list 12 times.)

English for Scots just doesn't work, IMHO.

 

[Calgacus]

Yes, like Mannin, Orkney, Dublin, and the Western Isles.

Well, you're right, the Norse-Gaels certainly, on the basis of naming and culture, need a tag more than the Scoto-English.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, if Lowland Scot is not good use for Scottish, I'd say separate Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic then.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Well, if Lowland Scot is not good use for Scottish, I'd say separate Scots Gaelic and Irish Gaelic then.

You replied as I was editing my post. I still contend that Lowland Scots is quite useful, as shown.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Perhaps there is still a solution.

Have 'Irish' renamed to 'Gaelic' and have it include both Irish and Scots gaelic naming patterns.

Then instead of having 'Scottish' kept as it is (Anglicised Gaels) have 'Scottish' changed to a more Norman/French version list.

1066 border region (Berwick) can be changed to 'Saxon', the rest to Gaelic (Irish).

The later scenarios will conform to gaelic culture and the Scoto-Norman lists (Scottish). This allows Scotland to keep its dominant names (without being French or English dominant, as would be if those cultures were used.)

Ayeshteni

 

[Calgacus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Mar[/url] (Keep in mind that this region is heavily Lallans, despite being in northern Scotland.)

English for Scots just doesn't work, IMHO.

The Earldom of Mar is actually predominantly Highland (the CK location is not accurate); the names there are corrupted versions of Gaelic names. Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaer_of_Mar

When you see Scottish names like that from the CK period, there is a 99% the rulers are Gaelic-speakers, as with the Earls of Mar up until the end of the 14th century.

 

[Calgacus]

You replied as I was editing my post. I still contend that Lowland Scots is quite useful, as shown.

No, I don't think you did show that. All you did was post a link to a corrupt list of Gaelic names thinking they were Lowland Scots.

 

[Calgacus]

The later scenarios will conform to gaelic culture and the Scoto-Norman lists (Scottish). This allows Scotland to keep its dominant names (without being French or English dominant, as would be if those cultures were used.)

Ayeshteni

Actually, throughout this period most Scots have Gaelic names. French names are confined to the royal family and the French and Anglo-French nobles they introduce into royal demesne land. For scenarios 1066 and 1187, all but one (Berwick) of the Scottish counts should be Gaelic - the French Comyn in Buchan (1187), who for some bizarre reason has "Scottish" culture in the game, should actually be a guy called Fergus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaer_of_Buchan

It's not until the 1337 scenario that the syncretic CK "Scottish" culture has any usefulness, since for 1187, all non-Gaelic nobles (excepting the Dunbars) are no more than 2nd generation (but mostly first generation) French-speaking migrants.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Quite.

OK, so we have:

1) Current setup, not really ideal in a majority of ways, but it is the benchmark for what we have.

2) Compromise proposal. Whereby Irish and Scots Gaelic are combined and 'Scottish' is left as is or is adapted to be norman/english/frankish.

3) Calgacus' proposal. Whereby Scottish is accurately portrayed as Scots Gaelic and later scenarios' nobility replaced with english/norman/frankish culture.

Problems. Option 1 fails on most 'accuracy' levels and is a 'generalised sweeping' of the Scottish question. Not favourable for any of us I feel.

Option 2 'blends' both Irish and Scots Gaelic into one and so will have inaccuracies on both sides of the Irish Sea. A relative consencus that it that is 'acceptable' if not ideal. Using current 'Scottish' as anglified scots appears to be inaccurate. No comment by others on making 'Scottish' an accurate (as far as it can) representation of norman/frankish/anglified scots names.

Option 3 provides an accurate representation of Scots Gaelic. Later scenarios place frankish/english/norman cultures for nobles. Names not entirely accurate particularily for Scotland.

Thoughts?

Ayeshteni

 

[Calgacus]

Option 3 provides an accurate representation of Scots Gaelic. Later scenarios place frankish/english/norman cultures for nobles. Names not entirely accurate particularily for Scotland.

Thoughts?

Ayeshteni

Naming is going to be a problem anyways. It's not like the current name-lists accurately portray anyone in the game. It is true that these figures normally draw their names from a limited number of names within their own culture (whether these be ethnic, religious, larger regional, etc), naming is usually determined by family precedent or in imitation of the liege or another famous person. CK does not take that into account, so naming problems must be taken for granted whatever the case. If you're talking about the culture of 1337 kings of Scotland, there should only be two names on the "Scottish" list, Robert and James. :rofl:

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I suppose it's best to represent 1066 more accurately than 1337, as the former generally gets more play.

PS. There ain't many Norwegian provinces in Scotland, so is the Scottish melting pot really necessary?

 

[Calgacus]

I suppose it's best to represent 1066 more accurately than 1337, as the former generally gets more play.

Byakhiam, couldn't agree more.

PS. There ain't many Norwegian provinces in Scotland, so is the Scottish melting pot really necessary?

Indeed. The only province which a historian can say was predominantly Norse (ignoring Orkney and Shetland) in 1066 was Caithness, which had a mix of Gaelic and Norse culture in 1066, and still had a mix of Gaelic and Norse culture in 1337 (although Norse became confined to the extreme NE coast by 1337)! There's a case for making Western Isles Norse in 1066, but it was probably just an elite culture, so is easily represented by the rulers being Norse. There is no case for Galloway.

 

[Ayeshteni]

I suppose it's best to represent 1066 more accurately than 1337, as the former generally gets more play.

PS. There ain't many Norwegian provinces in Scotland, so is the Scottish melting pot really necessary?

In which case Calgacus' proposal is the best one (as we all knew)

Scottish culture to be 'Scots Gael' and later scenarios made do with norman/frankish/english nobles (I shall leave the particulars to the expert methinks )

As for provinces (Norse) it would be a good idea to get rid of Norse in Galloway region anyway in 1066. Yes it had Norse influence but Gaelic was still the dominant 'culture'.

With Calgacus' proposal the Scottish melting pot events could probably be scrapped as well.

Ayeshteni

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Yes remove it from Galloway and probably make just the rulers of Western Isles Norse and the province culture Gaelic for 1066.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Byakhiam, if you are planning to use the Norse-tag for the Wends (western slavic) then you might run into the trouble that it is somehow bugged.

If you use it for not the norwegian, danish or swedish culture, the culture you are using it for will get 'norse' names and not the names you add to the characternames file.

If you use it for the norwegian, danish or swedish culture you get unnamed infants.

Maybe you could check it out. I have tried all kinds of options but I can't seem to get this culture-tag to work properly.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Perhaps use Norse for Norwegian and Norwegian for Wends, then?

You then get unnamed infants for the Norwegians (using Norse tag). At least that happens when I mod it.