Cultures - READ FIRST POST AND USE ONLY THIS THREAD!

[unmerged(48100)]

Byak, I like the cultural changes you made. Especially I like the idea that Mordvins get their own tag instead of Estonians.

Because names seem to cause problems, we could unite all catholic cultures and call it Latin culture and use Latin names. Then we would have Henricus instead of Heinrich, Henri, Henry, Henrik, Enrico, Enrique, Henryk, Harri, Hendrik and Jindřich.

Yes of course. And then we make another one in the Byzantine main language and give it to all Orthodox. Then one in Arabic for all Muslims. And then we make all titles in the area of the Roman Empire unrecreatable and make one huge Roman Empire!

 

[Ayeshteni]

Seeing as it is something of a tradition (and we don't want to bunk tradition do we?) I shall take the opportunity to bring to your enlightened attentions a discussion on the very slight alteration to the 'Scottish' culture, that would bring a vast ray of sunshine and a glow of historicity that we all love to the CK game.

But theriouthly folkths. My suggestion is one of two points:

1) To give the Scottish tag its proper Gaelic names. In this manner the Scots can be represented accurately for the 1066 scenario. Most 'Scots' lands spoke Gaelic and it was the language of the nobles including Malcolm III Canmore. For the later scenarios the nobles could be given either Norman or English depending to account for their influences on the Scottish nobility.

or

2) Rename 'Irish' to 'Gaelic'. and provide 'Gaelic' to the Scottish provinces and in this manner the 'Scots' dominant nobles (as well as the provinces) can retain (or regain to be more accurate) their Gaelic heritage. The current 'Scots' list could then be kept for the later scenarios for the Scottish nobility.

While the current Scottish list is undoubtably vastly improved than the one before the change it can be improved. My wish is for the first option which was argued for (more succinctly than I could ever do) by Calgacus (will find thread) a while back. http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201745&page=1&pp=25

I of course have a third option (which I do not think will be popular )

3) Take an unused Culture (say Celtic or another) and use that for 'Gaelic' (rather than lumping Irish and Scots Gaelic together). In truther I am annoyed we didn't think of this earlier. Here you can use 'Gaelic' in the Scottish held Highland provinces as well as the nobles. While at the same time using the current Scottish culture for the 'anglicised' Scots in later scenarios.

Ayeshteni

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Seeing as it is something of a tradition (and we don't want to bunk tradition do we?) I shall take the opportunity to bring to your enlightened attentions a discussion on the very slight alteration to the 'Scottish' culture, that would bring a vast ray of sunshine and a glow of historicity that we all love to the CK game.

But theriouthly folkths. My suggestion is one of two points:

1) To give the Scottish tag its proper Gaelic names. In this manner the Scots can be represented accurately for the 1066 scenario. Most 'Scots' lands spoke Gaelic and it was the language of the nobles including Malcolm III Canmore. For the later scenarios the nobles could be given either Norman or English depending to account for their influences on the Scottish nobility.

or

2) Rename 'Irish' to 'Gaelic'. and provide 'Gaelic' to the Scottish provinces and in this manner the 'Scots' dominant nobles (as well as the provinces) can retain (or regain to be more accurate) their Gaelic heritage. The current 'Scots' list could then be kept for the later scenarios for the Scottish nobility.

While the current Scottish list is undoubtably vastly improved than the one before the change it can be improved. My wish is for the first option which was argued for (more succinctly than I could ever do) by Calgacus (will find thread) a while back. http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201745&page=1&pp=25

I of course have a third option (which I do not think will be popular )

3) Take an unused Culture (say Celtic or another) and use that for 'Gaelic' (rather than lumping Irish and Scots Gaelic together). In truther I am annoyed we didn't think of this earlier. Here you can use 'Gaelic' in the Scottish held Highland provinces as well as the nobles. While at the same time using the current Scottish culture for the 'anglicised' Scots in later scenarios.

Ayeshteni

Problem with Scotland, as you stated, is that it wasn't anglicised in 1066, but CK cultures have to represent situation of whole CK era. Much of anglication happened during the reign of king David I (Dabíd mac Maíl Choluim) who reigned from 1124-53. I don't know is it good idea to create separate Gaelic culture for first decades of game. Similar way we could demand Hiberno-Norse culture for some Irish rulers. But then again in England there is both Saxon and English culture. Unfortunately we don't have enough culture tags. One suggestion could be that we change Scottish names to Gaelic form or that Scottish namelist have both Gaelic and Scots names.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Yes, that would free up some tags which then can be used for all those finnic/ugric-baltic tribes.

Mordvins should have two tags: Erzya and Moksha. Finns will get four: Finns, Tavastians, Kvens and Karelians. Estonians get one and Livs another. One goes to Votes and Lappish tag will be divided, so that Samoyeds get their own tag. Meryans, Mari, Murom, Komi (Permians), Meshschera and Vepses get their own tags.

Chudes is a Old Russian term for Finns and Estonians.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Problem with Scotland, as you stated, is that it wasn't anglicised in 1066, but CK cultures have to represent situation of whole CK era. Much of anglication happened during the reign of king David I (Dabíd mac Maíl Choluim) who reigned from 1124-53. I don't know is it good idea to create separate Gaelic culture for first decades of game. Similar way we could demand Hiberno-Norse culture for some Irish rulers. But then again in England there is both Saxon and English culture. Unfortunately we don't have enough culture tags. One suggestion could be that we change Scottish names to Gaelic form or that Scottish namelist have both Gaelic and Scots names.

Quite. The third option is the only one that requires an extra culture tag (couldn't the Abkhazia one be used?) The second option renames 'Irish' tag to 'Gaelic' and spreads it to Scotland. It isn't perfect (some Irish names don't fit and some Scots gaelic would look funny in Ireland if added) but it may surfice with a little work.

I still prefer first option, making the Scottish names Gaelicized and using Norman and/or English for the later scenarios.

Ayeshteni

 

[Olaus Petrus]

As far as I know Gaelic forms of the names were still used, even when Norman form was more common. For example Robert the Bruce was known as Roibert a Briuis (medieval Gaelic) and Robert de Brus (Norman French). It wouldn't be too horrible if we use change all Scottish names into Gaelic form.

Edit: Modern Scottish historians do that. It's easy to recognise is book written in England or Scotland. English writers use English forms of the names and Scots writers use Gaelic forms of the names.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Seeing as it is something of a tradition (and we don't want to bunk tradition do we?) I shall take the opportunity to bring to your enlightened attentions a discussion on the very slight alteration to the 'Scottish' culture, that would bring a vast ray of sunshine and a glow of historicity that we all love to the CK game.

But theriouthly folkths. My suggestion is one of two points:

1) To give the Scottish tag its proper Gaelic names. In this manner the Scots can be represented accurately for the 1066 scenario. Most 'Scots' lands spoke Gaelic and it was the language of the nobles including Malcolm III Canmore. For the later scenarios the nobles could be given either Norman or English depending to account for their influences on the Scottish nobility.

or

2) Rename 'Irish' to 'Gaelic'. and provide 'Gaelic' to the Scottish provinces and in this manner the 'Scots' dominant nobles (as well as the provinces) can retain (or regain to be more accurate) their Gaelic heritage. The current 'Scots' list could then be kept for the later scenarios for the Scottish nobility.

While the current Scottish list is undoubtably vastly improved than the one before the change it can be improved. My wish is for the first option which was argued for (more succinctly than I could ever do) by Calgacus (will find thread) a while back. http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201745&page=1&pp=25

I of course have a third option (which I do not think will be popular )

3) Take an unused Culture (say Celtic or another) and use that for 'Gaelic' (rather than lumping Irish and Scots Gaelic together). In truther I am annoyed we didn't think of this earlier. Here you can use 'Gaelic' in the Scottish held Highland provinces as well as the nobles. While at the same time using the current Scottish culture for the 'anglicised' Scots in later scenarios.

Ayeshteni

I've been a strong advocate of "Option #2" since the beginning. While some names like Constantine weren't seen in Ireland and others like Cummascach weren't found in Scotland, many to this day remain nearly identical.

Robert the Bruce was known as "Roibert" to medieval Gaels who spoke the language now known as "Middle Irish". Roibert became Roibeard in modern Ireland and Raibeart in modern Scotland, and that is 1,000 years later.

Speaking of which, I'll quote Robert to stress my point:

Whereas we and you and our people and your people, free since ancient times, share the same national ancestry and are urged to come together more eagerly and joyfully in friendship by a common language and by common custom, we have sent you our beloved kinsman, the bearers of this letter, to negotiate with you in our name about permanently strengthening and maintaining inviolate the special friendship between us and you, so that with God’s will our nation may be able to recover her ancient liberty.

This was in the early 1300s and they considered it the same language, even after Scotland had been heavily anglicized. Clearly, the best use for the "Scottish" tag is to represent what is now known as "Lowland Scots", the Germanic language heavily influenced by English. Irish could be renamed to "Gaelic" and be found in Ireland, (most of) Scotland, and Man in 1066, while losing ground as the scenarios progress. (By the 1337 scenario, Dublin, Man and Lower Scotland would definately be changed.)

 

[Brian Bóruma]

As far as I know Gaelic forms of the names were still used, even when Norman form was more common. For example Robert the Bruce was known as Roibert a Briuis (medieval Gaelic) and Robert de Brus (Norman French). It wouldn't be too horrible if we use change all Scottish names into Gaelic form.

Edit: Modern Scottish historians do that. It's easy to recognise is book written in England or Scotland. English writers use English forms of the names and Scots writers use Gaelic forms of the names.

With the death of Malcolm IV in 1165, not a single Scottish king had a Gaelic name. Sure, all of them had Gaelic forms of their names, but French, and later English were the Lingua Franca of Scotland, and they certainly didn't speak Gaelic as their native tongues. Gone were the Duncans, the Donalds, the Kenneths, and even, sadly, the Malcolms. Greek, Latin, Germanic and even Hebrew names were found, but Gaelic ones went out of fashion in the Royal court and in the Lowlands. (James who united Britain, for example, had a Hebrew name and spoke English, hence he was probably known by courtiers as King James, certainly not Ard Rí Seamus.) MAYBE keep them Gaelic in 1187, but by 1337 certainly not.

 

[Drachenfire]

Celtia

IMO with any discussion of revamping cultures, the Celtic cultures of Breton and Gaelic -must- be represented alongside Welsh.

I'm in favor of option number 3, but with the limited tags I think option 2 would work best. But let us not forget and recognize that Breton too must be better represented.

So the Celtic cultures would be:

Gaelic (Ireland and Scottish Highlands). Renaming Irish to Gaelic
Scottish (representing lowlands Scots we know today?)
Welsh (All Wales and Cornwall) as is, no changes at all Cymru am byth
Breton (Leon, Cornouaille, Penthievre, Vannes, possibly Nantes and Rennes too). Celtic tag to Breton?

is this correct?


*muses: too bad we cant have a fourth tier level, and have an Emperor of Celtia

 

[jordarkelf]

My proposal for Scotland:

Variant A:
Highlands: Gaelic (tag: Scottish)
Lowlands: Saxon

Variant B:
Highlands: Irish (renamed to Gaelic)
Lowlands: Saxon

B frees up the 'scottish' tag for another culture.

Lowland Scots (called 'Inglis' until almost recent times), like modern English, is a direct descendant of Anglosaxon and in the CK period was so similar to it it could still be considered a dialect. Names reflected this.
Scots Gaelic comes from Irish, and is very similar to it still. It was even more so in the CK period.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

What about Scottish melting pot events? They'll convert whole Scotland to mono-culturous, so all poor Gaels or poor Lowlanders will be extinguished.

 

[Quift]

What about Scottish melting pot events? They'll convert whole Scotland to mono-culturous, so all poor Gaels or poor Lowlanders will be extinguished.

Can't we just make them english and liberate one tag that can then by used for the sards?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I think Lowland Scots used different naming practices than English. And definitely different than Saxons. So if Gaelic is to be added, Scottish should remain in use as Lowland Scot.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Can't we just make them english and liberate one tag that can then by used for the sards?

I suppose that would be fine, although most names in Ireland weren't found in Scotland and vice versa. While there were Roberts everywhere, traditional English names like Henry and Edmund never found fame in the north. One Scottish king (named Malcolm, ironically) had a father named Henry, but that Henry was the Earl of Huntington down in England.

Scottish would best be used for the Lowlanders, but it could be used for Sardinia, or any other tag for that matter. I'd suggest a Manx/Orkney/Western Isles culture first with a mix of Gaelic, Norse and English names, due to the tag having a celtic sprite attached to it, on top of the fact that it's very hard to pick a single dominant ethnicity in Man when you look at their list of rulers.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I think Lowlander Scots deserve a tag of their own. Much more than Sards or Manx at least.

PS. Deleted duplicate post, Brian.

 

[Brian Bóruma]

Can't we just make them english and liberate one tag that can then by used for the sards?

I suppose that would be fine, although most names in England weren't found in Scotland and vice versa. While there were Roberts everywhere, traditional English names like Henry and Edmund never found fame in the north. One Scottish king (named Malcolm, ironically) had a father named Henry, but that Henry was the Earl of Huntington down in England.

Scottish would best be used for the Lowlanders, but it could be used for Sardinia, or any other tag for that matter. If not the Lowlands (which I strongly suggest) I'd suggest a Manx/Orkney/Western Isles culture first with a mix of Gaelic, Norse and English names, due to the tag having a Celtic sprite attached to it, on top of the fact that it's very hard to pick a single dominant ethnicity in Man when you look at their list of rulers.

 

[Ayeshteni]

Get rid of Scottish tag!!! certainly not.

So perhaps the best bet is to have 'Scottish' culture remain as it is to cover the lowland areas in the 1066 scenario (and it may as well stay Scottish culture in the latter scenarios) while having:

1) An unused culture tag to represent 'Scots Gaelic' culture in the Highland regions and with the nobles (including Malcolm III Canmore). In this manner Irish would not need to be changed.

or

2) probably more realistically, have Irish renamed to 'Gaelic' and have it applied to the Highland regions and the Scots nobility (including Malcolm III Canmore). If this was the case the Irish/Gaelic tag will have to include additional Scots Gaelic names to cover the merger.

needless to say I would never condone the removal of the Scottish tag at any rate.

Ayeshteni

EDIT: can someone tell me where the Scottish melting pot events are (or what they do?)

 

[unmerged(21937)]

There ain't any free Celt tags, so only options are:

A) Current system of Anglicized Scottish names and Scottish culture all over Scotland from start to finish

B) Irish -> Gaelic, spreading it over to Highlands and using Scottish for Lowlander Scots.

C) Scottish -> Highlanders and using English for Lowlanders.

EDIT: Scottish melting pot turns Norwegian provinces to Scottish.

 

[Drachenfire]

There ain't any free Celt tags, so only options are:

A) Current system of Anglicized Scottish names and Scottish culture all over Scotland from start to finish

B) Irish -> Gaelic, spreading it over to Highlands and using Scottish for Lowlander Scots.

C) Scottish -> Highlanders and using English for Lowlanders.

EDIT: Scottish melting pot turns Norwegian provinces to Scottish.

Multipal choice! :wacko:


I choose B then C, but Ill let others that have more knowladge speak on this one. I am just glad Gaelic, Welsh, AND Breton will be represented

 

[Brian Bóruma]

There ain't any free Celt tags, so only options are:

A) Current system of Anglicized Scottish names and Scottish culture all over Scotland from start to finish

B) Irish -> Gaelic, spreading it over to Highlands and using Scottish for Lowlander Scots.

C) Scottish -> Highlanders and using English for Lowlanders.

EDIT: Scottish melting pot turns Norwegian provinces to Scottish.

I'd go with B also. Scottish provinces remain Scottish for nearly the entirety of EU2. To make them essentially "Anglosaxon", give them alien names and French sprites when it isn't necessary would be the lesser of the two options. Still, as I'm Irish I wouldn't be as offended as say, a Scotsman