SBolshevik

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The cultures in this area are rather nonsensical. Let's start with the Avars:
1. The Avars were not numerous within the Avar Khaganate. While this may seem a bit absurd considering the name, we have reason to believe that most of the regular populace was Slavic, and that the nobility was Turkic. In essence, representing all of Pannonia as Avar is as accurate as representing Swedish-ruled Finland as Swedish.
2. The Vlachs are restricted to 3 provinces, only one of them in Wallachia. This is rather ridiculous, as we know the Vlachs inhabited even Pannonia, as referenced in the Gesta Hungarorum. Therefore, the Vlachs should be expanded to cover the east of Pannonia.
3. Make the Vlachs Orthodox. Seriously, anything is better than them being Slavic pagan, it makes no sense. Even generic pagan is better.
4. The remaining Avar provinces in k_dacia ought to be filled with Slavs, with Moldau mostly being East Slavic (representing the Tiverians and Ulichi), and Wallachia South Slavic (representing the part of the Seven Slavic Tribes)
5. The Hungarians are misplaced in the 769 start date - they only moved to roughly the area north of the Crimea around 830. They should be moved to the east to the Don and made tributaries of the Khazars.
 
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SBolshevik

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What kind of belief did they have before christianity?
Well, the ones to the north of the Danube (which are the only ones that would even be legitimately pagan at this stage) likely practiced some sort of Dacian paganism.
 

SBolshevik

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The problem is that they'd likely end up being just another generic defensive pagan religion.
Oh well.
 
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starwarsfan541

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Interesting.
To explain further, after the invasion the Christian hierarchy imploded in Thracia and the Hellenic cutls in particular the cults of Dionysus and Samo-Thrace resurged quite a bit among both the native population and some of the Bulgarian population as well.

Not all of Bulgaria should be Bulgarian in CM either.

Wouldn't Hellenism be redundant anyway due to official statement regarding it's support in CK2?

Well, it should be revisited, as it clearly wasn't dead. When I get back from my job tonight I'll right about it a bit more
 

SBolshevik

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To explain further, after the invasion the Christian hierarchy imploded in Thracia and the Hellenic cutls in particular the cults of Dionysus and Samo-Thrace resurged quite a bit among both the native population and some of the Bulgarian population as well.

Not all of Bulgaria should be Bulgarian in CM either.
To be honest pre-900 or pre-1000 there shouldn't even be separate Slavic cultures along more modern lines. I'd argue that having 4 (West Slavic, South Slavic, and 2 to represent the West Slavs who migrated to the north of what would become Rus' and the Slavs who migrated directly into the area around Kiev) would be far better.
 
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elvain

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generally, I support this, there's just one nitpick, I'd point out:
2. The Vlachs are restricted to 3 provinces, only one of them in Wallachia. This is rather ridiculous, as we know the Vlachs inhabited even Pannonia, as referenced in the Gesta Hungarorum, and that they even reached Slovakia and Bohemia.

I can't speak much about their extent in earlier centuries, but they certainly did not reach as far as Bohemia. They made it into eastern parts of Moravia and Slovakia, that's right. But even more importantly they did it in the 14th-17th centuries! That's something totally irrelevant for 769 and 867 setup, don't you think?
 
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SBolshevik

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I was under the impression that that had happened earlier.
Whoops. :oops:
 

Duarte

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To my knowledge those provinces would remain Avar, you gotta have them some where plus wasn't in central Hungary where the Avar Artefacts were discovered (don't quote me on this I might me mixing things up).
 

starwarsfan541

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To my knowledge those provinces would remain Avar, you gotta have them some where plus wasn't in central Hungary where the Avar Artefacts were discovered (don't quote me on this I might me mixing things up).
Makes sense, my general issue is how far would romanian go and what areas would be slavic vs avar.
 

SBolshevik

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The Vlachs would be in Transylvania, whereas the Avars would occupy only the very central provinces of Pannonia, such as Pest. I'm not sure how logical the Avars being Altaic is, though. To my knowledge, what had happened in Avaria was reverse to what happened in Hungary - the Avars' culture stayed, but they stopped using their language, at least as an official one. I imagine there'd be a melting pot for the Avars to meld into the local cultures (as should be done with Hungarians) as they would have become genetically more like the Slavs over time.

EDIT: That culture could, like the Hungarian one, be an exonym - the Russians called the Avars "Обры", so one could use "Obr" as the name of the culture.

Slavic cultures in Pannonia are a mess, by the way, but they're a mess in general before 1066, so what to put in Pannonia is very, very debatable.
 
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