Cultures and Portraits Revamp

[cybrxkhan]

Alright all, now that the Republic DLC and Mediterranean facepack are upon us, it's time for me to start discussing my plans for the next version. I am operating under the assumption that with the next patch, there will be new Republic clothes for the Republican characters; a new mediterranean graphics set for Iberians, Italians, and Byzantines that does not appear to give them new clothes; and new mediterranean graphics set for Andalusians (that I assume will not give new clothes).

Planned changes:

- Give the andalusian graphics set to all Muslims except for Pashtuns, Bedouins, Egyptian Arabs, and Berbers, who will then retain the normal muslimgfx
- On the last one - Berbers will now have muslimgfx, and Maghreb Arabs will now have the andalusian/mediterranean skin tones; this is to satisfy those complaining about black Berbers (which I still mildly prefer), but now there's at least room for some variance
- Give all non-Slavic and non-Byzantine European characters the Republic clothes after, say, 1420 or something, to represent the change in fashion style towards a more Renaissance style (if possible; hopefully - Im still not sure exactly how PI will handle the Republic clothes)
- If the mediterranean portraits also come with new clothes for the Byzantines, I'll also give them to the Ethiopians/Nubians
- I might also give characters with the byzantinegfx (Greeks, Armenians, and Georgians) the Russian clothing - maybe - and if that works out I might extend that to the Ethiopians and Nubians
- Add Icelandic culture to PB version

Thoughts? Further suggestions?

Previously I stated I was also considering giving the Italians the Occitangfx (i.e. default Western looks more or less), but I have decided against this for now - it's more so I'm hesitant to do it, given that if I do so I'd also have to pretty much change the non-Andalusian Iberians, and probably the Greeks as well, and ruin the whole point of the mediterranean DLC. In terms of variety, I don't really mind if the faces are a tad darker than they should be. Not to mention I'm kind of tired of reading the whole debate on the mediterranean portraits' 'accuracy' in the main CKII forum. I may include an optional add-on for those who insist on having the plaer-skinned Italians and non-Andalusian Iberians.

 

[jordarkelf]

My thoughts:

Give Nubians Byz or Russki clothes yes or rather maybe (muslim would fit better), Ethiopians no. Abyssinia/Ethiopia was more insulated from the rest of the world than Nubia/Nobatia/Makuria and had little contact with it, so they should not be using Byz or Russki clothes.

Split the new faces and clothes (if any), and give the clothes to all Mediterraneans sure, but keep (north) Italians, Occitans, and Catalans at least light skinned. Use the darker skinned for south Italians/Sicilians, Greeks (maybe? The East slavic faces might actually fit better for European Greeks at least), Castillians and Portuguese. Also use the dark skinned faces for the Iberian/Maghreb/Levantine muslims, but with muslim clothes.

Republic clothes for Renaissance? Maybe, but not before 1400 and then only Italians. I don't see how you propose to do this outside of a culture shift though.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I tend to agree with the above post, and I'm sad to see no more black Berbers.

 

[Sarog]

I tend to agree with the above post, and I'm sad to see no more black Berbers.

Likewise, I've grown quite attached to having black Berbers.

I'm on the fence regarding the new portrait DLC, but I am intrigued by the idea of russian clothing on byzantine characters. I assume the DLC will have some clothing for byzantines, but the russian clothing would look cool on georgians.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Alright, giving it a tad bit more thought, I've decided on a few things, though hesitantly (and always subject to change, of course, if anyone has more arguments to sway me one way or another).

On the Italians, I will be keeping them the way the portrait DLC has them. Looking at several other screenshots I hadn't seemed previously, it seems the mediterranean faces, though indeed rather darker than what I would expect, actually aren't *that* dark. So I'll leave the Italians as is. If, however, after playing a while I figure it doesn't work, then I'll change it.

On the Berbers, since Sleight of Hand is sad, I'll keep them with the African faces. What I'm considering doing later, though (i.e. not this next version), is possibly dividing the Berber culture into Berber and Tuareg (ideally the Tuareg will occupy the weird provinces connecting West Africa and Morocco), the former with the muslimgfx and the latter with the africangfx (it shouldn't be too much an issue with character and province history as it appears that none of the major Berber/Maghreb dynasties in-game are of Tuareg ancestry to my knowledge, so I'l'l just change a couple of minor dynasties in the Sahara to Tuareg and that should do it). The main problem is that I wouldn't really know whether such a naming scheme would make any sense, as Tuaregs are Berbers so separating them from the Berbers would be a bit... weird. And there isn't really a possible large "tribe" or the like that would really be inclusive of all non-Tuareg Berbers. Thoughts? At the least though, as said, since SoH is sad, I'll keep the African faces for now - I like them that way too, anyhow, but I just figured the "darkness" scale went from westerngfx > mediterranean gfx > muslimgfx > africangfx. That said... maybe I'll have the Maghreb Arabs keep the muslimgfx for now.

Give Nubians Byz or Russki clothes yes or rather maybe (muslim would fit better), Ethiopians no. Abyssinia/Ethiopia was more insulated from the rest of the world than Nubia/Nobatia/Makuria and had little contact with it, so they should not be using Byz or Russki clothes.

Good points. Actually, now that I think about it, it might be a problem giving even the Byzantines the Russian clothes, since the Russian clothes also have a few fur coats and all, which wouldn't exactly make sense in Byzantium. (That said I wasn't going to give any of them the Russian (fur) hats, anyways, that would of course make no sense.)

Republic clothes for Renaissance? Maybe, but not before 1400 and then only Italians. I don't see how you propose to do this outside of a culture shift though.

I think it would be applicable to all Western Europeans after 1400. Granted I don't know much about late medieval/Renaissance fashion, and we only have so many screenshots of the Republic clothes to see, but I'm of the opinion that the Republic clothes would reasonably match the style of clothing common among Western European nobility in the mid-1400s. That said I would see if I can have it spread to the Italians first, then the French, etc.

I am doing this under the assumption that the Renaissance clothing is a unique set of clothes separate from the normal gfx that I could code in. Or basically that it doesn't operate under the rules of normal clothing, which have to be attached to a gfx and that it's moddable in the portrait properties text. If not then I'll be sad but oh well.

 

[jordarkelf]

I'd make Maghreb Arabs tan skinned (using the new GFX), in the CK2 timeframe the population was not yet as Arabicized as it is today so you're dealing with essentially Carthaginian, Roman, and Vandal descendants who fell under Islam. Thus more European than Asian/Arabic. Berbers I'd say likewise, mainly because e.g. the Canarias were essentially genetically Berbers (guanche), and they were blonde haired and had lighter skin than the Spaniards and Portuguese. Berbers and pre-islam "Maghrebs" were very close in appearance, not too different from Italians in skin colour.
Tuaregs and Berbers are the same people, white or at least tanned. Berbers aren't black today and weren't in 1200 AD either. The blacks you're thinking of are the Sosso and Mandé of Mali and the Songhay.

I am doing this under the assumption that the Renaissance clothing is a unique set of clothes separate from the normal gfx that I could code in. Or basically that it doesn't operate under the rules of normal clothing, which have to be attached to a gfx and that it's moddable in the portrait properties text. If not then I'll be sad but oh well.

My guess is it is tied to government form since from screenshots we see Gotland and Hansa wear the same things as Venice, Pisa, and Genoa, yet their rulers are not of a "Republic" culture. That'd make them pretty unusable without extracting and redistributing, which would be illegal. I also disagree they fit nobles in the Renaissance - commoners yes, but not the Count of Somewhereville. Also keep in mind that the Renaissance didn't really reach western and northern Europe until the 16th Century.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I'd make Maghreb Arabs tan skinned (using the new GFX), in the CK2 timeframe the population was not yet as Arabicized as it is today so you're dealing with essentially Carthaginian, Roman, and Vandal descendants who fell under Islam. Thus more European than Asian/Arabic. Berbers I'd say likewise, mainly because e.g. the Canarias were essentially genetically Berbers (guanche), and they were blonde haired and had lighter skin than the Spaniards and Portuguese. Berbers and pre-islam "Maghrebs" were very close in appearance, not too different from Italians in skin colour.

Tuaregs and Berbers are the same people, white or at least tanned. Berbers aren't black today and weren't in 1200 AD either. The blacks you're thinking of are the Sosso and Mandé of Mali and the Songhay.

As for the Tuareg, a good number of which live pretty much right next door to the Mande and the like anyways, so they can unsurprisingly look rather "black":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...stival_au_Desert_near_Timbuktu,_Mali_2012.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Touareg-blacksmith.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Nomad-Tuaregs.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Tahouapaysantouareg.jpg

All the pictures are on the Wikipedia page, and while the Wikipedia page also has pictures of Tuareg who are lighter skinned, I believe my point stands.

That said I'm not sure whether I'll go through with a North Berber - South Berber split, which this is essentially all about, so have both "black" Berbers and the more mediterranean-looking ones.

Speaking of the mediterranean, the reason why I want to have different looks for the Maghreb and the Berbers is simply for more variety and distinguishing between the two groups. More of a visual thing, you see, whether that makes sense or not. To me it makes sense, since the Berbers are displaced over a large, geographical area ranging pretty much over the entire Sahara. Personally, anyways, I see the Maghreb Arabic culture as essentially the coastal-dwelling, Mediterranean Berbers, as opposed to the inland Berbers.

That said, it would look rather odd indeed if the inland Berbers looked different from the Maghreb Arabs/coastal Berbers. I guess I can give the Maghreb Arabs the mediterranean looks. I like them, anyhow, so that's fine.

But I'll keep the Berbers black, or else SoH will be sad! (And this is still partly SoH's mod, well, I think it's part of SoH's de jure demesne, last time I checked.)

Dammit, this is all so annoying and nitpicky. If we could just do a percentage thing I could just evenly split everybody and everybody's happy.

My guess is it is tied to government form since from screenshots we see Gotland and Hansa wear the same things as Venice, Pisa, and Genoa, yet their rulers are not of a "Republic" culture. That'd make them pretty unusable without extracting and redistributing, which would be illegal. I also disagree they fit nobles in the Renaissance - commoners yes, but not the Count of Somewhereville. Also keep in mind that the Renaissance didn't really reach western and northern Europe until the 16th Century.

Looking a bit more closely at the screenshots for the new DLC, I've come to agree with you somewhat. More rather, that the Republic clothes would be appropriate for late 1400s and 1500s... which is just out of vanilla CKII's timeframe. However, it isn't out of VIET's timeframe, which CPR feeds into. So my revised plan would be to give the Renaissance clothes to the Italians post 1400, and to the rest of the Europeans post 1445 or something (which is barely any time, yes, but not for VIET).

Well, that's if it's even possible to use it - as you say it might not even work, anyways.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Alright, one other new little feature for CPR I've decided (and for VIET, too (though in a later version that'll incorporate the changes from CPR, but this is more relevant to CPR): modular portrait sets!

Basically what I mean is for some of more controversial choices CPR has, such as black Berbers and the whole mediterranean thing that spawned a massive thread almost as big as my VIET one in the main forum in the matter of a few days, I'll provide optional files for the cultures for different graphics sets. So for instance although the standard version of CPR will still have black Berbers, I'll also include optional files for those who want mediterranean-looking Berbers, or muslim-looking Berbers. Same for several of the mediterranean groups, so you can have pale-skinned Italians if you want, or pale-skinned Byzantines, or Mongol-looking Sicilians. So users will just have to replace the standard CPR files with those from the optional folders.

This will be for the convenience for those unlike Sleight of Hand and jordarkelf who don't really know how to code this stuff so there'll be more custo

 

[cybrxkhan]

Hi all, hopefully some of you guys still remember CPR.

I haven't abandoned CPR at all, as I was only waiting until I bought the mediterrean DLC so I could put out the new portraits. Now that I just got the mediterranean portrait DLCs a few days ago, I'll be releasing the next version very soon, probably at the same time as VIET.

The newest version of CPR will include two new portrait sets, turkishgfx and persiangfx. The former is mostly for the Turks, and combines the Mediterranean appearance with Muslim clothes and Mongol hair and beards; the latter is for much of the Middle East and North African except for the Pashtun, Bedouin Arabs, and Egyptian Arabs, and combines the Mediterranean appearance with Muslim clothes and hair and beards. I really like them both, but I'll include optional files for those of you who don't like the mediterranean portraits to replace/remove them.

Anyhow, some preview screenshots are below. I like them - some of them look pretty scary to me.

turkishgfx

Spoiler

persiangfx

Spoiler

Last one looks pretty villainous to me, like an evil vizier or something.

Also, I'm thinking of including GeorgAfLöfbacka's excellent Mediterranean Ladies Beautified Mod. Unfortunately even switching around clothes and hairdos weren't enough to make the mediteranean ladies look a bit better - I mean, I'm okay with the mediterrane portrait set in general, but frankly I don't understand how almost all of the mediterranean women look rather... unseemly.


Thoughts and comments about the new upcoming portrait sets welcome! Other than adding in an Icelandic culture, that's all I have planned for the next version of CPR.

 

[G.Strategos]

Hi all, hopefully some of you guys still remember CPR.

I haven't abandoned CPR at all, as I was only waiting until I bought the mediterrean DLC so I could put out the new portraits. Now that I just got the mediterranean portrait DLCs a few days ago, I'll be releasing the next version very soon, probably at the same time as VIET.

The newest version of CPR will include two new portrait sets, turkishgfx and persiangfx. The former is mostly for the Turks, and combines the Mediterranean appearance with Muslim clothes and Mongol hair and beards; the latter is for much of the Middle East and North African except for the Pashtun, Bedouin Arabs, and Egyptian Arabs, and combines the Mediterranean appearance with Muslim clothes and hair and beards. I really like them both, but I'll include optional files for those of you who don't like the mediterranean portraits to replace/remove them.

Anyhow, some preview screenshots are below. I like them - some of them look pretty scary to me.

turkishgfx

Spoiler

persiangfx

Spoiler

Last one looks pretty villainous to me, like an evil vizier or something.

Also, I'm thinking of including GeorgAfLöfbacka's excellent Mediterranean Ladies Beautified Mod. Unfortunately even switching around clothes and hairdos weren't enough to make the mediteranean ladies look a bit better - I mean, I'm okay with the mediterrane portrait set in general, but frankly I don't understand how almost all of the mediterranean women look rather... unseemly.


Thoughts and comments about the new upcoming portrait sets welcome! Other than adding in an Icelandic culture, that's all I have planned for the next version of CPR.

Very nice additions buddy...

 

[David Lofton]

turkishgfx

Spoiler

persiangfx

These pretty great i look forward to when I can use them.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

You've certainly found a better use for those Med. portraits than whoever made them did.

 

[Hurabi]

Basically what I mean is for some of more controversial choices CPR has, such as black Berbers and the whole mediterranean thing that spawned a massive thread almost as big as my VIET one in the main forum in the matter of a few days, I'll provide optional files for the cultures for different graphics sets. So for instance although the standard version of CPR will still have black Berbers, I'll also include optional files for those who want mediterranean-looking Berbers, or muslim-looking Berbers.

That is great news! I have to say, speaking as someone of Berber descent, seeing black Berbers always threw me off. I mean, sure, there are quite a few black Berbers, but they're mainly southern (near Mali, Niger). It's like making Greeks all blonde 'cause there are some blonde Greeks. Anyways, truly great news.

As a side note, splitting Tuaregs from Berbers would be weird. I'd suggest making a Berber culture group that includes Tuaregs among others, but I'm not too sure on how feasible that'd be considering the lack of info and counties.

EDIT: Love the new Persian and Turkish gfx!

 

[cybrxkhan]

You've certainly found a better use for those Med. portraits than whoever made them did.

I have to agree. I don't mind the mediterranean portraits, but I guess they're much better used for most of the Muslims. Frankly I'm a bit perplexed as to why the original muslim portraits were so swarthy and dark-skinned, when the Muslim world had a crap ton of variety.

 

[G.Strategos]

Hey buddy...why you don't ask permission to use these??? they are great for the women...

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?661617-Mediterranean-Ladies-Beautified-Again-Mod

 

[richvh]

He did.

 

[G.Strategos]

He did.

Hehe..missed that...

 

[fairleystuff]

I love the new faces. Honestly, the original Muslim portraits look more like something from Team America to me.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Hey buddy...why you don't ask permission to use these??? they are great for the women...

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?661617-Mediterranean-Ladies-Beautified-Again-Mod

As richvh said I'll be using that. I didn't provide female screenshots above because I wasn't using that yet.

I love the new faces. Honestly, the original Muslim portraits look more like something from Team America to me.

Agreed. The original Muslims were so drastically different than the Westerners - when they should have been about halfway in between or something. Frankly I think the mediterranean portraits really suit the middle easterners better as long as you slap on the right beards - they even look like some Arabs and Persians I know (like some of them actually look like my Persian professor)!

 

[G.Strategos]

Hello mate...
Just to make it sure...Cult. and Port. will be compatible with P.B and SWMH right???
An ETA for the mod ???

Thanks buddy...