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abian363

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Requiring specific provinces would be a bit too railroaded I imagine.
I mean that for example: There has been a dynasty of Anglian kings in Hispania ( IDK why ) and during his time a province converted to Anglian culture , but then the king is succeeded by a Saxon dynasty, which converts the province to Anglo-Saxon.
This example is very unlikely but the world doesn't make sense anyways so it could be possible, so maybe the Anglo-Saxon culture should be set only for Britania.
It is just an option.
 

Vagn

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I mean that for example: There has been a dynasty of Anglian kings in Hispania ( IDK why ) and during his time a province converted to Anglian culture , but then the king is succeeded by a Saxon dynasty, which converts the province to Anglo-Saxon.
This example is very unlikely but the world doesn't make sense anyways so it could be possible, so maybe the Anglo-Saxon culture should be set only for Britania.
It is just an option.
That should be prevented by the other conditions I suggested, as no neighbouring province would be in the celtic group (The Ibero-Celts are in a separate continental_celtic group), and it would be likely that the Saxon dynasty would not have a capital in the British Isles.
 

abian363

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That should be prevented by the other conditions I suggested, as no neighbouring province would be in the celtic group (The Ibero-Celts are in a separate continental_celtic group), and it would be likely that the Saxon dynasty would not have a capital in the British Isles.
That would be a good advancement in the mod
 

WilyWillis

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If the Alemanni or Suebi were the dominant group then perhaps not, however there are references to Suebi and Alemanni settling in Britain, who presumably did assimilate into the more powerful tribes in the area. The etymology of Swaffham, Norfolk, is usually given as Swæfa-ham. Swæfum is given as one of the tribes in Widsith and is usually understood as the OE name of the Suebi.

Presumably if the Alemannic Bucinobantes of Fraomar into the Anglo-Saxon period, then they too were assimilated by the Angles or Saxons. There have been several Alemannic brooches which have been found in early graves, although it isn't clear as to whether they are evidence of settlement or simply imported.

Perhaps it would work better if the initial event can only fire for Angles/Saxons/Jutes/Frisians etc., but a second event can trigger for the other Germanic cultures to assimilate if they are not the dominant power.
I just meant to use the Alemanni & Suebi as examples. Perhaps a better one would be Lombards or Bavarians, but my point was that it'd be rather odd to see non-Anglo/Saxon/Jute/generally Ingvaeonic Germanic groups in Britain (and especially ruling characters of their culture) inexplicably turning into, and calling themselves Anglo-Saxons over time.

I agree with your last point, BTW. A province with the Suebi or Thuringian culture, or whoever else, in Britain turning Anglo-Saxon under the influence of an Anglo-Saxon ruling character makes a lot more sense than a ruler of the non-Ingvaeonic culture calling themselves Anglo-Saxons and speaking Englisc all of a sudden just because their capital's in Britain and they're ruling over a Celtic population.
 

Vagn

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I just meant to use the Alemanni & Suebi as examples. Perhaps a better one would be Lombards or Bavarians, but my point was that it'd be rather odd to see non-Anglo/Saxon/Jute/generally Ingvaeonic Germanic groups in Britain (and especially ruling characters of their culture) inexplicably turning into, and calling themselves Anglo-Saxons over time.

I agree with your last point, BTW. A province with the Suebi or Thuringian culture, or whoever else, in Britain turning Anglo-Saxon under the influence of an Anglo-Saxon ruling character makes a lot more sense than a ruler of the non-Ingvaeonic culture calling themselves Anglo-Saxons and speaking Englisc all of a sudden just because their capital's in Britain and they're ruling over a Celtic population.
How about something like the following as a series of events:

Code:
namespace = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture

character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.1
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        #has_global_flag = saxon_lancaster
        NOT = { has_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis }
        NOT = { culture = saxon }
        NOT = { culture = english }
        year = 500
        OR = {
            culture = anglo
            culture = jute
            culture = old_saxon
            culture = old_frisian
            culture = frisian
            #culture = chatti
            #culture = cheruscii
            #culture = thuringian
            #culture = warnic
            #culture = reudignian
        }
        capital_scope = {
            region = world_europe_west_brittania
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
            NOT = { culture = english }
        }
        OR = {
            any_realm_province = {
                OR = {
                    culture_group = celtic
                    culture = romano_british
                }
            }
            any_realm_province = {
                any_neighbor_province = {
                    OR = {
                        culture_group = celtic
                        culture = romano_british
                    }
                }
            }
        }
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        years = 100
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            spouse = {
                NOT = { culture = ROOT }
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                
                }
            }
        }
    }
    immediate = {
        set_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
        trigger = {
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
        if = {
            limit = {
                capital_scope = {
                    NOT = { culture = saxon }
                    OR = {
                        culture_group = central_germanic
                        culture_group = east_germanic
                        culture_group = west_germanic
                        culture_group = north_germanic
                    }
                }
            }
            capital_scope = {
                culture = saxon
                religion = ROOT
            }
        }
    }
}
character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.2
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        has_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
        culture = saxon
        any_realm_province = {
            region = world_europe_west_brittania
            OR = {
                culture_group = central_germanic
                culture_group = east_germanic
                culture_group = west_germanic
                culture_group = north_germanic
            }
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
            NOT = { culture = english }
        }
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        months = 12
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            spouse = {
                NOT = { culture = ROOT }
                #NOT = { culture = saxon }
                #NOT = { culture = english }
                #NOT = { culture = saxon }
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                
                }
            }
        }
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
        trigger = {
            culture = saxon
        }
        random_realm_province = {
            limit = {
                region = world_europe_west_brittania
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                }
                NOT = { culture = saxon }
                NOT = { culture = english }
            }
        }
    }
}
character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.3
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        has_global_flag  = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
        NOT = { culture = saxon }
        NOT = { culture = english }
        OR = {
            culture_group = central_germanic
            culture_group = east_germanic
            culture_group = west_germanic
            culture_group = north_germanic
        }
        OR = {
            AND = {
                independent = no
                top_liege = {
                    culture = saxon
                }
            }
            AND = {
                is_landed = no
                host = {
                    culture = saxon
                    capital_scope = {
                        region = world_europe_west_brittania
                    }
                }
            }
            AND = {
                independent = yes
                num_of_count_titles = 1
                NOT = { num_of_count_titles = 2}
                tier = COUNT
                capital_scope = {
                    region = world_europe_west_brittania
                    any_neighbor_province = {
                        culture = saxon
                        owner = {
                            top_liege = {
                                culture = saxon
                                primary_title = { higher_tier_than = COUNT }
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }
            }
        }
        
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        days = 30
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
        trigger = {
            is_landed = no
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTB_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
        trigger = {
            is_landed = yes
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
        random_demesne_province = {
            limit = {
                region = world_europe_west_brittania
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                }
                NOT = { culture = saxon }
                NOT = { culture = english }
            }
            culture = saxon
        }
    }
    
}

The initial event will only fire for rulers who are Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes (and others that may have been Ingvaeones but are currently commented out).

The second event only fires for Anglo-Saxons and switches Germanic provinces in the Britannia region to Anglo-Saxon.

The third event allows independent counts, who only own a single province to switch to Anglo-Saxon if they have a more powerful Anglo-Saxon neighbour, as well as those who are vassalised by an Anglo-Saxon.
 

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WilyWillis

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How about something like the following as a series of events:

Code:
namespace = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture

character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.1
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        #has_global_flag = saxon_lancaster
        NOT = { has_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis }
        NOT = { culture = saxon }
        NOT = { culture = english }
        year = 500
        OR = {
            culture = anglo
            culture = jute
            culture = old_saxon
            culture = old_frisian
            culture = frisian
            #culture = chatti
            #culture = cheruscii
            #culture = thuringian
            #culture = warnic
            #culture = reudignian
        }
        capital_scope = {
            region = world_europe_west_brittania
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
            NOT = { culture = english }
        }
        OR = {
            any_realm_province = {
                OR = {
                    culture_group = celtic
                    culture = romano_british
                }
            }
            any_realm_province = {
                any_neighbor_province = {
                    OR = {
                        culture_group = celtic
                        culture = romano_british
                    }
                }
            }
        }
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        years = 100
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            spouse = {
                NOT = { culture = ROOT }
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
              
                }
            }
        }
    }
    immediate = {
        set_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
        trigger = {
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
        if = {
            limit = {
                capital_scope = {
                    NOT = { culture = saxon }
                    OR = {
                        culture_group = central_germanic
                        culture_group = east_germanic
                        culture_group = west_germanic
                        culture_group = north_germanic
                    }
                }
            }
            capital_scope = {
                culture = saxon
                religion = ROOT
            }
        }
    }
}
character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.2
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        has_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
        culture = saxon
        any_realm_province = {
            region = world_europe_west_brittania
            OR = {
                culture_group = central_germanic
                culture_group = east_germanic
                culture_group = west_germanic
                culture_group = north_germanic
            }
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
            NOT = { culture = english }
        }
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        months = 12
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            spouse = {
                NOT = { culture = ROOT }
                #NOT = { culture = saxon }
                #NOT = { culture = english }
                #NOT = { culture = saxon }
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
              
                }
            }
        }
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
        trigger = {
            culture = saxon
        }
        random_realm_province = {
            limit = {
                region = world_europe_west_brittania
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                }
                NOT = { culture = saxon }
                NOT = { culture = english }
            }
        }
    }
}
character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.3
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        has_global_flag  = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
        NOT = { culture = saxon }
        NOT = { culture = english }
        OR = {
            culture_group = central_germanic
            culture_group = east_germanic
            culture_group = west_germanic
            culture_group = north_germanic
        }
        OR = {
            AND = {
                independent = no
                top_liege = {
                    culture = saxon
                }
            }
            AND = {
                is_landed = no
                host = {
                    culture = saxon
                    capital_scope = {
                        region = world_europe_west_brittania
                    }
                }
            }
            AND = {
                independent = yes
                num_of_count_titles = 1
                NOT = { num_of_count_titles = 2}
                tier = COUNT
                capital_scope = {
                    region = world_europe_west_brittania
                    any_neighbor_province = {
                        culture = saxon
                        owner = {
                            top_liege = {
                                culture = saxon
                                primary_title = { higher_tier_than = COUNT }
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }
            }
        }
      
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        days = 30
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
        trigger = {
            is_landed = no
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTB_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
        trigger = {
            is_landed = yes
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
        random_demesne_province = {
            limit = {
                region = world_europe_west_brittania
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                }
                NOT = { culture = saxon }
                NOT = { culture = english }
            }
            culture = saxon
        }
    }
  
}

The initial event will only fire for rulers who are Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes (and others that may have been Ingvaeones but are currently commented out).

The second event only fires for Anglo-Saxons and switches Germanic provinces in the Britannia region to Anglo-Saxon.

The third event allows independent counts, who only own a single province to switch to Anglo-Saxon if they have a more powerful Anglo-Saxon neighbour, as well as those who are vassalised by an Anglo-Saxon.
Wow, that chain looks awesome. So awesome, in fact, that I can't think of anything else to add, haha.

So on a different topic, are there any plans for a general German melting pot? Ie. turning Thuringians, Alamanni, any remaining non-Romanized Franks outside of Gaul, Warni, Lebus etc. German or at least into the regional medieval German cultures like Swabian, Bavarian and Franconian? I noticed those cultures were in the code already, but have found no events to have the Migration Era barbaric Germans evolve into them. I was thinking that adopting Christianity (maybe just specifically Nicene) and the feudal government type could induce this evolution, with being ruled by a ruler of the Latin culture group (Roman, Franceis, Romano-Frank, Romano-Gothic, etc) accelerating the process.
 
Last edited:

IlikeTrains

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How about something like the following as a series of events:

Code:
namespace = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture

character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.1
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        #has_global_flag = saxon_lancaster
        NOT = { has_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis }
        NOT = { culture = saxon }
        NOT = { culture = english }
        year = 500
        OR = {
            culture = anglo
            culture = jute
            culture = old_saxon
            culture = old_frisian
            culture = frisian
            #culture = chatti
            #culture = cheruscii
            #culture = thuringian
            #culture = warnic
            #culture = reudignian
        }
        capital_scope = {
            region = world_europe_west_brittania
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
            NOT = { culture = english }
        }
        OR = {
            any_realm_province = {
                OR = {
                    culture_group = celtic
                    culture = romano_british
                }
            }
            any_realm_province = {
                any_neighbor_province = {
                    OR = {
                        culture_group = celtic
                        culture = romano_british
                    }
                }
            }
        }
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        years = 100
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            spouse = {
                NOT = { culture = ROOT }
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
              
                }
            }
        }
    }
    immediate = {
        set_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_1
        trigger = {
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
        if = {
            limit = {
                capital_scope = {
                    NOT = { culture = saxon }
                    OR = {
                        culture_group = central_germanic
                        culture_group = east_germanic
                        culture_group = west_germanic
                        culture_group = north_germanic
                    }
                }
            }
            capital_scope = {
                culture = saxon
                religion = ROOT
            }
        }
    }
}
character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.2
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        has_global_flag = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
        culture = saxon
        any_realm_province = {
            region = world_europe_west_brittania
            OR = {
                culture_group = central_germanic
                culture_group = east_germanic
                culture_group = west_germanic
                culture_group = north_germanic
            }
            NOT = { culture = saxon }
            NOT = { culture = english }
        }
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        months = 12
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            spouse = {
                NOT = { culture = ROOT }
                #NOT = { culture = saxon }
                #NOT = { culture = english }
                #NOT = { culture = saxon }
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
              
                }
            }
        }
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_2
        trigger = {
            culture = saxon
        }
        random_realm_province = {
            limit = {
                region = world_europe_west_brittania
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                }
                NOT = { culture = saxon }
                NOT = { culture = english }
            }
        }
    }
}
character_event = {
    id = WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture.3
    title = EVTTITLE_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
    desc = EVTDESC_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
    picture = GFX_evt_stone_church #Placeholder
    border = GFX_event_normal_frame_diplomacy
    trigger = {
        has_global_flag  = anglo_saxon_ethnogenesis
        NOT = { culture = saxon }
        NOT = { culture = english }
        OR = {
            culture_group = central_germanic
            culture_group = east_germanic
            culture_group = west_germanic
            culture_group = north_germanic
        }
        OR = {
            AND = {
                independent = no
                top_liege = {
                    culture = saxon
                }
            }
            AND = {
                is_landed = no
                host = {
                    culture = saxon
                    capital_scope = {
                        region = world_europe_west_brittania
                    }
                }
            }
            AND = {
                independent = yes
                num_of_count_titles = 1
                NOT = { num_of_count_titles = 2}
                tier = COUNT
                capital_scope = {
                    region = world_europe_west_brittania
                    any_neighbor_province = {
                        culture = saxon
                        owner = {
                            top_liege = {
                                culture = saxon
                                primary_title = { higher_tier_than = COUNT }
                            }
                        }
                    }
                }
            }
        }
      
    }
    mean_time_to_happen = {
        days = 30
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.2
            NOT = { religion_group = pagan_group }
        }
        modifier = {
            factor = 0.5
            is_reformed_religion = yes
        }
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTA_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
        trigger = {
            is_landed = no
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
    }
    option = {
        name = EVTOPTB_WTWSMS_anglo_saxon_culture_3
        trigger = {
            is_landed = yes
        }
        any_child = {
            limit = { culture = ROOT }
            culture = saxon
        }
        culture = saxon
        random_demesne_province = {
            limit = {
                region = world_europe_west_brittania
                OR = {
                    culture_group = central_germanic
                    culture_group = east_germanic
                    culture_group = west_germanic
                    culture_group = north_germanic
                }
                NOT = { culture = saxon }
                NOT = { culture = english }
            }
            culture = saxon
        }
    }
  
}

The initial event will only fire for rulers who are Angles, Saxons, Frisians and Jutes (and others that may have been Ingvaeones but are currently commented out).

The second event only fires for Anglo-Saxons and switches Germanic provinces in the Britannia region to Anglo-Saxon.

The third event allows independent counts, who only own a single province to switch to Anglo-Saxon if they have a more powerful Anglo-Saxon neighbour, as well as those who are vassalised by an Anglo-Saxon.
This is a good piece of code :). What do you think @loup99 , can it be implemented?
 

loup99

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Any realm province is culture_group = celtic or Romano-British OR any neighbouring province is culture_group = celtic or Romano-British
Regarding the discussion on Anglo-Saxons I agree with the broad thoughts outlined and suggested as a basis of implementation and thank you for the helpful illustration in the code, but this is particular condition is one I don't understand the motivation behind.

While I'm by no means an expert on the matter, why would an adjacent Celtic or Romano-British province be required? If it is a melting-pot between the various Germanic "invaders" amongst themselves without the direct implication of the local population, which was, depending on the various perspectives on the question, either Anglo-Saxonised through a hostile takeover by large number of migrants or done through a smaller group of elites then being emulated by the indigenous population at large, why does this feature as a condition?
 

Vagn

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Regarding the discussion on Anglo-Saxons I agree with the broad thoughts outlined and suggested as a basis of implementation and thank you for the helpful illustration in the code, but this is particular condition is one I don't understand the motivation behind.

While I'm by no means an expert on the matter, why would an adjacent Celtic or Romano-British province be required? If it is a melting-pot between the various Germanic "invaders" amongst themselves without the direct implication of the local population, which was, depending on the various perspectives on the question, either Anglo-Saxonised through a hostile takeover by large number of migrants or done through a smaller group of elites then being emulated by the indigenous population at large, why does this feature as a condition?
My motivation is that it seems that it was the juxtaposition of the Germanic peoples in contrast to the native Britons that led to the common Anglo-Saxon identity, rather than continuing with their original tribal identities.
The earliest references to an 'English' identity are spoken in opposition to a Welsh identity as in the Laws of Ine.
Similarly, in Bede, the native Britons are directly contrasted to the English. The 'Angli' in Bede's account are chosen by God to redeem the island of Britain, whilst the natives are heresiarchs, who required divine intervention be brought back to the Roman Church.
Likewise in Alcuin's York poem, he refers to the Britons only in contrast to the Anglo-Saxons, where the Anglo-Saxons are more worthy of inheriting the isle.

Similarly some modern authors suggest that the reason there is so little Celtic influence on the Anglo-Saxons despite their presumed survival in 'Germanised' areas, is the ongoing conflicts with the British rulers in the West of the island, led to little uptake of their culture. This is in contrast to say France, where the Franks came to adopt large parts of the Gallo-Roman culture, including their language.

Equally, if it's felt that the condition isn't justified then I have no issue with it being removed.
 

loup99

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My motivation is that it seems that it was the juxtaposition of the Germanic peoples in contrast to the native Britons that led to the common Anglo-Saxon identity, rather than continuing with their original tribal identities.
The earliest references to an 'English' identity are spoken in opposition to a Welsh identity as in the Laws of Ine.
Similarly, in Bede, the native Britons are directly contrasted to the English. The 'Angli' in Bede's account are chosen by God to redeem the island of Britain, whilst the natives are heresiarchs, who required divine intervention be brought back to the Roman Church.
Likewise in Alcuin's York poem, he refers to the Britons only in contrast to the Anglo-Saxons, where the Anglo-Saxons are more worthy of inheriting the isle.
That is an interesting view on the matter! But wouldn't one in-game terms be able to say the progression towards a system closer to the Anglo-Saxon model of feudalism also spawned a distinct identity from the previous tribal systems?

Similarly some modern authors suggest that the reason there is so little Celtic influence on the Anglo-Saxons despite their presumed survival in 'Germanised' areas, is the ongoing conflicts with the British rulers in the West of the island, led to little uptake of their culture. This is in contrast to say France, where the Franks came to adopt large parts of the Gallo-Roman culture, including their language.
Yes, there are broadly two different conflicting views on the matter from what I understand, with some believing in the arrival of large numbers of Germanic migrants and their takeover through hostility against the native population of Britons, while others see it more like a process where small groups of Germanic migrant elites influenced and were emulated by the indigenous Britons. I guess both could be interpreted as arguments in favour of seeing the Britons as a factor in the Anglo-Saxon emergence.

Equally, if it's felt that the condition isn't justified then I have no issue with it being removed.
Well, I personally think that even if the Britons or Romano-British are not in majority in any province, their influence on the area is felt, especially since in your suggested example you have a region defined in the trigger. Therefore it seems like a plausible development nonetheless.
 

greatolaf3

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The migrations of the Germanics into Britannia is actually very odd. If you look at the linguistic evidence, there is very little contact, you see the occasional Celtic loanword, usually in the form of toponyms, but not enough contact for the Germanics to learn what the Celtic loan meant, leading to redundant place names. The genetic evidence indicates a near complete slaughter or expulsion of the Celts, but the archaeological and historical records tend to favor extended coexistence, with relatively little martial conflict. The Welsh are genetically distinct from the English throughout most of England, closest to the Cornish and lowland Scots. The English have the most variation from the norm in Kent, Sussex, Surrey, and Northumberland/Yorkshire, though the latter is from the Danelaw period, rather than the migration period.

Their identity could have come from being Germans ruling over Celts, it could've been a slow intermixing of the Angle and Saxon cultures, with some minor input from the Jutes, due to their existant similarity. It could've been a combination of the two, or something else, I wrote a whole spiel of something that made a lot of sense to me, before realizing it was about the English, not the Anglo-Saxons... Given that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is actually title the Saxon Chronicle, in Latin, I'd assume they still considered themselves separate even by the late 800s, when the earliest versions are dated to. Alternately, that meant that by then, they considered the terms Angle and Saxon interchangeable, could be either or more.
 

WilyWillis

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Sudden thought: could a melting pot with 'Romanobrit-onized' Germanic names arise from Romano-British (presumably before they turn into Brídaney) ruling over Angle/Jute/Saxon provinces, as opposed to those provinces simply turning Romano-British/Brídaney?
 

loup99

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Sudden thought: could a melting pot with 'Romanobrit-onized' Germanic names arise from Romano-British (presumably before they turn into Brídaney) ruling over Angle/Jute/Saxon provinces, as opposed to those provinces simply turning Romano-British/Brídaney?
Not planned, no, because that might as well be done with every single culture. Also, the provinces don't just turn into the other culture, it is a long process in the mod.
 

WilyWillis

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Not planned, no, because that might as well be done with every single culture. Also, the provinces don't just turn into the other culture, it is a long process in the mod.
Fair enough, I got curious because I found an unused culture called brittonic_jute in 00_cultures. Unfortunate, as I believe a Romano-Briton-Saxon melting pot would be plausible, but I understand why it won't be done. I also found what appear to be other melting pots, some which I think are about as plausible as brittonic_jute or Romano-Briton-Saxon like romano_persian and greek_persian, but their namelists seem to just be copypasted mashups of their constituent cultures' - will those also remain unused or be fleshed out as additional melting pots down the road?
 

loup99

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Fair enough, I got curious because I found an unused culture called brittonic_jute in 00_cultures. Unfortunate, as I believe a Romano-Briton-Saxon melting pot would be plausible, but I understand why it won't be done. I also found what appear to be other melting pots, some which I think are about as plausible as brittonic_jute or Romano-Briton-Saxon like romano_persian and greek_persian, but their namelists seem to just be copypasted mashups of their constituent cultures' - will those also remain unused or be fleshed out as additional melting pots down the road?
brittonic_jute will definitely be shelved for now, as it would overlap with the existing plans. When it comes to romano_persian and greek_persian, the name lists would first of all have to be redone to be plausible, and then we would have to evaluate if they can come to use.
 

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Sudden thought: could a melting pot with 'Romanobrit-onized' Germanic names arise from Romano-British (presumably before they turn into Brídaney) ruling over Angle/Jute/Saxon provinces, as opposed to those provinces simply turning Romano-British/Brídaney?
If this gets implemented, the Romano-Briton-Saxon culture could be called "Anglian" or "Sæxanglí/Sæxanglî" (combination of Saxone (Latin), Seaxe (Old English), and Anglii (Latin))
 

Pedantic_Fusilier

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Bump.

I made an account to wake up the thread.
I loved this thread a long time ago.
Still playing the mod and thank you, developers!
 

loup99

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Bump.

I made an account to wake up the thread.
I loved this thread a long time ago.
Still playing the mod and thank you, developers!
Thank you, but the thread is still open, there is absolutely no need to post here if you don't have anything to add to the discussion.
 
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Jak9090

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is there any good plausible melting pots possible in this mod? thats the only reason i could never get into it, felt like things were rail roaded into real history melting pot cultures dispite the fact this was an era where the cultures of the future were born, would be awesome to see some plausible cultures possible that didnt make it in real life
 
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loup99

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is there any good plausible melting pots possible in this mod? thats the only reason i could never get into it, felt like things were rail roaded into real history melting pot cultures dispite the fact this was an era where the cultures of the future were born, would be awesome to see some plausible cultures possible that didnt make it in real life
I don't understand where you get that from. We have several alt-history melting-pots, such as Galleis, Brídaney, Réyanu or Pièlsuzhany. Although only for those that we decided to make based upon the criterias of the time we had available and plausibility, hence why we started working with the Romance group and released that.