culture switch

[Riddermark]

Wait. So in vanilla it was that when you westernized and moved to a tech group you switched to these units? That's perfect why did they change it?

And is it editable so I can change it in my game as well ?

 

[jdrou]

Wait. So in vanilla it was that when you westernized and moved to a tech group you switched to these units? That's perfect why did they change it?

From a graphics point of view, it's usually better to keep the same unit group. The only reason it's a problem is because of the low-techgroup units having worse stats at the same level and that is being fixed in HT (as well as some mods for IN).

Unit groups (and tech groups, cultures, religions, etc.) do not change when you change tags. Until HT is available there is no way for the unit group to change unless you mod the savegame.

 

[Riddermark]

Well it's not kull to have to use mod to have equivalent troops but I guess HTTT will be much better

 

[truth is life]

Well it's not kull to have to use mod to have equivalent troops but I guess HTTT will be much better

That's true in both senses, but it's kinda fun to, for instance, use Winged Hussars as Poland in the appropriate timeframe, which wasn't possible after Westernization in the old scheme.

 

[Alerias]

If you take the bolded sentence only, you are correct, but if you take it in context, I believe my interpretation is correct.

I think it comes off of the heels of all the discussion about the muslim and eastern unit groups being inferior to the latin groups even after westernizing and being at the same land tech level. I think that paragraph means that if both Ming and France are at tech 50, they'll have similar strength units, but Ming's are still eastern group and France is still latin group. However, Ming will never reach land tech 50 without westernizing, so I think that is what he is talking about.

Well, I hate to be childish, but... Ha-HA! :rofl:

military_modernization_muslim = {
potential = {
technology_group = muslim
NOT = {
OR = {
unit_type = muslim
unit_type = western
unit_type = eastern
}
}
}
allow = {
stability = 3
centralization_decentralization = -2
ADM = 7
NOT = { has_country_modifier = resist_western_influences }
}
effect = {
unit_type = muslim
stability = -6
centralization_decentralization = 2
add_country_modifier = {
name = "action_and_reaction"
duration = 730
}
remove_country_modifier = "western_influences"
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

military_modernization_eastern = {
potential = {
technology_group = eastern
NOT = {
OR = {
unit_type = eastern
unit_type = western
}
}
}
allow = {
stability = 3
centralization_decentralization = -3
ADM = 7
NOT = { has_country_modifier = resist_western_influences }
}
effect = {
unit_type = eastern
stability = -6
centralization_decentralization = 2
add_country_modifier = {
name = "action_and_reaction"
duration = 1095
}
remove_country_modifier = "western_influences"
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

military_modernization_western = {
potential = {
technology_group = western
NOT = {
unit_type = western
}
}
allow = {
stability = 3
centralization_decentralization = -4
ADM = 7
NOT = { has_country_modifier = resist_western_influences }
}
effect = {
unit_type = western
stability = -6
centralization_decentralization = 2
add_country_modifier = {
name = "action_and_reaction"
duration = 1460
}
remove_country_modifier = "western_influences"
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

 

[Maldenic]

It was in the Dev Diaries, just in the comments:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10475145&postcount=93
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10475165&postcount=96

 

[JimboOmega]

I wonder, looking at the event, what does
potential = {
technology_group = eastern
... mean?

I wonder if it's scripted so that Ming doesn't have the potential to westernize their units... or some such. In the old argument, it was always ming, ming, ming as the reason that you couldn't westernize your military...

There's probably a more general/less ming specific explanation, but I'm curious what it is.

 

[King Nothing]

I wonder, looking at the event, what does
potential = {
technology_group = eastern
... mean?

I wonder if it's scripted so that Ming doesn't have the potential to westernize their units... or some such. In the old argument, it was always ming, ming, ming as the reason that you couldn't westernize your military...

There's probably a more general/less ming specific explanation, but I'm curious what it is.

That first part is simply that you have to be in the eastern tech group. In this case it means that you have already westernized so you are in the eastern tech group, then it's possible to westernize your army.

Hmm.. Why would it? They have to westernize their tech first and I doubt that Ming will ever do that unless it's human controlled. And why shouldn't a human controlled Ming be able to westernize? Or maybe I just don't understand what you mean.

EDIT: Wait.. Shit. I just noticed you get a 2 point decentralization hit when you westernize the army and you have to be at -4 centralization for the last one. That's not going to be a fast westernization at least. In the Ming case probably several hundred years for a complete one. Good enough?

Have they also done something similar to the tech westernization?

 

[sprites]

about westernization ,

	rotw_westernisation = {
		potential = {
			OR = {
				technology_group = sub_saharan
				technology_group = new_world
				technology_group = indian
				technology_group = chinese
			}
			any_neighbor_country = {
				OR = {
					technology_group = western
					technology_group = eastern
					technology_group = muslim
				}
			}
		}
		allow = {
			NOT = { centralization_decentralization = -1 }
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -2 }
			stability = 3
			ADM = 6
		}
	  effect = {
			technology_group = muslim
			random_owned = {
				base_tax = 1
				change_manpower = 1
			}
			innovative_narrowminded = -1
			stability = -5
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "western_influences"
				duration = -1
			}
			remove_country_modifier = "western_influences"
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}

on the others the decision set the modifier 'western influences' but this one removes it just after applying it?

 

[JimboOmega]

about westernization ,

	rotw_westernisation = {
		potential = {
			OR = {
				technology_group = sub_saharan
				technology_group = new_world
				technology_group = indian
				technology_group = chinese
			}
			any_neighbor_country = {
				OR = {
					technology_group = western
					technology_group = eastern
					technology_group = muslim
				}
			}
		}
		allow = {
			NOT = { centralization_decentralization = -1 }
			NOT = { innovative_narrowminded = -2 }
			stability = 3
			ADM = 6
		}
	  effect = {
			technology_group = muslim
			random_owned = {
				base_tax = 1
				change_manpower = 1
			}
			innovative_narrowminded = -1
			stability = -5
			add_country_modifier = {
				name = "western_influences"
				duration = -1
			}
			remove_country_modifier = "western_influences"
		}
		ai_will_do = {
			factor = 1
		}
	}

on the others the decision set the modifier 'western influences' but this one removes it just after applying it?

Interesting - you now only have to border a muslim tech group (or better), not a western one, in order to make that first leap of westernization.

As for Ming - while I was never someone who argued the point - there was a lot of clamoring in threads on the westernization issue that it was too easy to westernize and the only thing keeping Ming from conquering the world (especially in multiplayer) was that its late game units sucked. Typically a player would somehow get another religion (typically Hindu - one without a tax penalty), and then westernize, and then be a big blob of doom.

As a Dai Viet player, I rejected this argument, because really, Dai Viet needs all the help it can get - especially the chance to westernize.

 

[King Nothing]

Soo.. That should be hard enough I think. For the tech westernizations you will move one step towards narrowminded for each one and for the military ones you will move two steps towards decentralizations and they will demand 1 extra step for each..

So that would mean that when you are ready for the first westernization you would have to take 3 innovative steps and 15 stab hits for the tech to get to western and also 10 steps towards centralization and 18 stab hits for the military westernization. I doubt anyone will say it's to easy. Pretty much impossible for a bunch of countries I guess..

 

[sprites]

military can be enacted to western in 1 step

but don't worry , AI ming will never westernize early , they are too narrowmonded for that

i'd be more concerned about the 'overextension' modifier

 

[King Nothing]

military can be enacted to western in 1 step

but don't worry , AI ming will never westernize early , they are too narrowmonded for that

i'd be more concerned about the 'overextension' modifier

Ahh.. That's very true. Didn't look close enough on the "last" military westernization I guess. Assumed we had to take it in steps. That seems more reasonable.

Then it's just 21 stab hits and 6 slider steps for a complete westernization. Easy as cake.

But that is assuming they take out that little bug that I think is there.. It has to be a NOT = { centralization_decentralization = -4 } in the allow part. Otherwise you have to be decentralized and it's easier to go to western than it is to go to muslim... That just can't be right.

 

[JimboOmega]

Ahh.. That's very true. Didn't look close enough on the "last" military westernization I guess. Assumed we had to take it in steps. That seems more reasonable.

Then it's just 21 stab hits and 6 slider steps for a complete westernization. Easy as cake.

But that is assuming they take out that little bug that I think is there.. It has to be a NOT = { centralization_decentralization = -4 } in the allow part. Otherwise you have to be decentralized and it's easier to go to western than it is to go to muslim... That just can't be right.

I'm always confused by what = means in paradox scripst, maybe this got flipped around. If so - if you have to be decentralized to westernize - somebody needs to tell P*Dox ASAP so it can get in the release day patch. I will be very upset if I spend all my time paddling the wrong way in order to westernize.

It is true that AI Ming... well, AI any country will hardly ever westernize - my understanding is that the stay narrowminded, which has general benefits, but they also lose the potential for westernization.

 

[King Nothing]

I'm always confused by what = means in paradox scripst, maybe this got flipped around. If so - if you have to be decentralized to westernize - somebody needs to tell P*Dox ASAP so it can get in the release day patch. I will be very upset if I spend all my time paddling the wrong way in order to westernize.

Well... In this case if you want to westernize the military you have to have the centralization-decentralization slider at -4 or more decentralized. -5 is maximum centralized so they have just made it extremely easy... That is for the westernization to western military. To get to eastern military you have to be at -3 or more decentralized so that is actually harder.. And to get to muslim is even more restricted.

But the player will probably only take it in one step anyway so they have just made it too easy..

EDIT: It's easy to see the difference between the tech and the military westernization. In the allow-part one of them have NOT = decentralized... and the other one doesn't.

 

[Junuxx]

Aaaa.. Damn. I kind of hoped I would be the first to try.

But I guess he would know then. Or did he perhaps write an AAR? Then I'm pretty sure he would have mentioned it in that. It would be quite a leap for "Ming" to all of a sudden field a lot of latin units instead of chinese.

No AAR, but I made a long post about it here

I ended up with a Hindu Germany that officially had Chinese units. But of course I recruited plenty European units in territories with European cores. And Chinese cav is actually the best in the game.

 

[OrangeYoshi]

Well, I hate to be childish, but... Ha-HA! :rofl:

Hmm.....

I guess that makes sense if it changes the capability of your units, but if Ming starts using Latin Knights, then I still say it doesn't make sense.