Culture spread in 1.07

[Prince Michael]

When you capture a title, that title receives a conquest flag. When you create a title (duchy and above), this creates a conquest flag to that title.

This is good. If I get this right, now when for example the kingdom of Sicily is created by a Norman (it usually is), Norman culture can be spread in their lands. So not only titles gained by conquest get the "conquest tag" but created titles, too. This conquest tag is quite new, because it didn't really work in 1.06...

If I continue with Norman Sicily example, now I if I don't destroy, say, Kingdom of Africa title, I can get Norman settlers in Africa. In 1.06 I had to destroy the title and wait for the drift to enable the settler event (I modified the landed.titles to get Norman Sicily and actually every time when I created some title as a character of any other culture which the titles were coded to - I think whoever creates a title, should be right to spread his culture, the coded cultures for titles are too restricting for my taste. Tight creation conditions are a different thing, I am happy with them.)

I guess if the Empire of Francia is created by Occitan character, Francia can get now Occitan settlers.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

A and B both happened. Capital in England tends to happen in the few cases where I see Norway taking England due to the different succession laws splitting the kingdoms up again fairly swiftly leaving a Norwegian on the throne in England with no land in Norway.

However, that should cause AT MOST 6-8 counties in total to convert if you are EXTREMELY lucky. I think your experience is more consistent with Dracko's report of a correction in the conquest_culture flag.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

This is good. If I get this right, now when for example the kingdom of Sicily is created by a Norman (it usually is), Norman culture can be spread in their lands. So not only titles gained by conquest get the "conquest tag" but created titles, too. This conquest tag is quite new, because it didn't really work in 1.06...

If I continue with Norman Sicily example, now I if I don't destroy, say, Kingdom of Africa title, I can get Norman settlers in Africa. In 1.06 I had to destroy the title and wait for the drift to enable the settler event (I modified the landed.titles to get Norman Sicily and actually every time when I created some title as a character of any other culture which the titles were coded to - I think whoever creates a title, should be right to spread his culture, the coded cultures for titles are too restricting for my taste. Tight creation conditions are a different thing, I am happy with them.)

I guess if the Empire of Francia is created by Occitan character, Francia can get now Occitan settlers.

The event requires that conquest_culture be matched to the culture of your primary title from landed_titles.txt, if I remember the scripted code correctly. So you won't get the settlers' event with Norman Sicily unless you mod k_sicily to be norman rather than italian (a pretty badly ahistorical idea, in real life it was the Normans who assimilated to the local population).

Or now with the conquest_culture flag you need just this to match your own culture and the province owner's culture? I'm not sure.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

And it would seem to provide an elegant dis-incentive to collect extra king titles, if I'm understanding the mechanic correctly.

No, quite the opposite indeed. Now you need as many titles as possible associated with conquest_culture, especially. The elegant disincentive was before, when you needed to de jure drift the lands and then wait.

In this respect, and also in terms of realism, the previous system - although bugged - was very better. However, I can see the gameplay benefits of a system that works through the conquest_culture flag; hopefully cultures won't spread too fast irrealistically.

 

[HabemusZlatan]

I dunno how it changed, but apparently I have resolved all the problems in the Balkans as everyone there flipped to Greek culture. Should be somewhat more resilient, as it is really weird to see centuries of Slavic settlements destroyed in something like 50 years.

 

[Dracko81]

The event requires that conquest_culture be matched to the culture of your primary title from landed_titles.txt, if I remember the scripted code correctly. So you won't get the settlers' event with Norman Sicily unless you mod k_sicily to be norman rather than italian (a pretty badly ahistorical idea, in real life it was the Normans who assimilated to the local population).

Or now with the conquest_culture flag you need just this to match your own culture and the province owner's culture? I'm not sure.

Yes the land_titles.txt is no longer relevent, you do not have to match.

Like I said, if you create a title, it is conquest_culture flagged to your culture, and will now allow settlers.

 

[Dracko81]

Alright for clarification, here is a small example:

I started Duke of "sicily", made him king of sicily. Declared war on King of africa for d_tunis, forced the win.

Landed a nobody in Tunis. Then I triggered the event manually:

As you can see the Event met all the criteria:

• Top_liege (king of sicily) has norman culture
• Province owner not the culture of the province
• Capitals only effected by the event
• One of the Following:
  • Primary title is subjugated by Norman (This is conquested_culture in the savegame)
  • County is Subjugated by Norman (same as above as they are the same in this case)
• Neigbour Province check to ensure no neighbouring Norman culture

The 3 fails are duchy, kingdom and empire. These were not conquered and as such do not have the conquest flag, but only one needs to be true.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Alright for clarification, here is a small example:

I started Duke of "sicily", made him king of sicily. Declared war on King of africa for d_tunis, forced the win.

Landed a nobody in Tunis. Then I triggered the event manually:

As you can see the Event met all the criteria:

• Top_liege (king of sicily) has norman culture
• Province owner not the culture of the province
• Capitals only effected by the event
• One of the Following:
  • Primary title is subjugated by Norman (This is conquested_culture in the savegame)
  • County is Subjugated by Norman (same as above as they are the same in this case)
• Neigbour Province check to ensure no neighbouring Norman culture

The 3 fails are duchy, kingdom and empire. These were not conquered and as such do not have the conquest flag, but only one needs to be true.

This is the definite answer. THANK you. I guess that conquering main holdings with the invasion CB sets the conquest_cultures of counties properly as well.

This now opens many possibilities, including the Occitan Francia, however incentives from hoarding too many kingdom titles aside, I feel the system now gets too irrealistic. I can also foresee Iberian cultures wiped away within the first 100 years if the Iberian imbalance persists. I would keep the system, but increase all the MTTHs.

So what is the meaning of the culture line in landed_titles.txt now? Basically nothing I guess, right?

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I dunno how it changed, but apparently I have resolved all the problems in the Balkans as everyone there flipped to Greek culture. Should be somewhat more resilient, as it is really weird to see centuries of Slavic settlements destroyed in something like 50 years.

This

 

[Dracko81]

This is the definite answer. THANK you. I guess that conquering main holdings with the invasion CB sets the conquest_cultures of counties properly as well.

This now opens many possibilities, including the Occitan Francia, however incentives from hoarding too many kingdom titles aside, I feel the system now gets too irrealistic. I can also foresee Iberian cultures wiped away within the first 100 years if the Iberian imbalance persists. I would keep the system, but increase all the MTTHs.

So what is the meaning of the culture line in landed_titles.txt now? Basically nothing I guess, right?

The culture in the land_titles.txt is the base line. If no conquest_culture flag use that.

I do forsee issues with this still, but I am testing that possible problem in a game and don't want to rush it.

Also Iberian cultures being wiped out in 100 years of gameplay? You realise once you start, it is no longer historical right?

What I mean is this is a what if situation, if they get invaded and killed, then thier culture could indeed be lost to the sands of time.

 

[Sian]

I dunno how it changed, but apparently I have resolved all the problems in the Balkans as everyone there flipped to Greek culture. Should be somewhat more resilient, as it is really weird to see centuries of Slavic settlements destroyed in something like 50 years.

They'll still be ethnicly Slavic ... just not culturally ... just like a fair few finns were ethnicly Finnish, but culturally for all intends and purproses Swedish

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

The culture in the land_titles.txt is the base line. If no conquest_culture flag use that.

I do forsee issues with this still, but I am testing that possible problem in a game and don't want to rush it.

Also Iberian cultures being wiped out in 100 years of gameplay? You realise once you start, it is no longer historical right?

What I mean is this is a what if situation, if they get invaded and killed, then thier culture could indeed be lost to the sands of time.

You are in a sense right, as the problem in Iberia is more the local balance rather than cultural spread; however in real life the Byzantine Empire held the Danube frontier for 100 more years and more after the game start and yet the Slavs remained.

Anyways, thank you for making further testing. Please do keep up posted on all you findings.

 

[Prince Michael]

One question: How the "conquest flag" is acquired? I guess the creation of title gives this title a conquest flag of the culture of the creator. What else gives that? An invasion? Maybe I have to begin to use invasions, I have never ever used one...

What about the other types of acquiring by force? For example claim wars? If I am English and fight a war for my claim on the kingdom of France, will France get an English conquest flag? What about usurpations by having 50% or more of the land needed for a title?

 

[Dracko81]

One question: How the "conquest flag" is acquired? I guess the creation of title gives this title a conquest flag of the culture of the creator. What else gives that? An invasion? Maybe I have to begin to use invasions, I have never ever used one...

What about the other types of acquiring by force? For example claim wars? If I am English and fight a war for my claim on the kingdom of France, will France get an English conquest flag? What about usurpations by having 50% or more of the land needed for a title?

Yes, any forceful taking of a title will grant you a conquest flag.

So if you holy war a duchy, the counties you aquire would recieve the flag. But the duchy would not as you do not get the duchy when winning the war. If you create the duchy, the duchy is then flagged to the creator.

EDIT: hmm I wonder whether usurping also gives a flag...Nope usurping a title does not grant a conquest flag.

 

[Corporatejive]

So to confirm, if I invade Ascalon as part of a holy war and then hand out all of the holdings to a courtier, each county gets the conquest flag. Then I usurp the ducal title and give it to the courtier, which doesn't have the conquest flag.

My question: Will that newly minted duke get culture conversion events (due to the county flags) or will he not get them as his primary title (the ducal title) doesn't have the conquest flag?

 

[Dracko81]

So to confirm, if I invade Ascalon as part of a holy war and then hand out all of the holdings to a courtier, each county gets the conquest flag. Then I usurp the ducal title and give it to the courtier, which doesn't have the conquest flag.

My question: Will that newly minted duke get culture conversion events (due to the county flags) or will he not get them as his primary title (the ducal title) doesn't have the conquest flag?

1066 start King of Leon, Holy war for d_badajoz, usurped duchy after win:

d_badajoz=
{
	liege="k_leon"
	holder=502165
	succession=gavelkind
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_gavelkind"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	law="city_contract_1"
	law="city_tax_1"
	law="iqta_contract_2"
	law="iqta_tax_1"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
0 1 16 10 5 2 1 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	previous=
	{
45007 3900 108500 502165 	}
	history=
	{
		1022.1.1=
		{
			holder=45007
			law="succ_turkish_succession"
		}
		1045.1.1=
		{
			holder=3900
		}
		1066.9.15=
		{
			holder=108500
			holder=502165
		}
	}
	de_jure_liege="k_andalusia"
	active=yes
}
c_plasencia=
{
	liege="d_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=gavelkind
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_gavelkind"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	law="city_contract_1"
	law="city_tax_1"
	law="iqta_contract_2"
	law="iqta_tax_1"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 2 0 18 2 0 13 2 0 18 2 0 13 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	history=
	{
		1022.1.1=
		{
			holder=45007
			liege="d_badajoz"
		}
		1045.1.1=
		{
			holder=3900
		}
		1060.1.1=
		{
			holder=3901
		}
		1066.9.15=
		{
			holder=108500
			holder=502165
		}
	}
	active=yes
[COLOR="#00FF00"]	conquest_culture="castillan"[/COLOR]
}
b_hervas=
{
	liege="c_plasencia"
	holder=502165
	succession=open_elective
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_open_elective"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
4 2 0 8 9 6 1 2 0 8 9 6 1 2 0 8 9 6 1 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_plasencia=
{
	liege="c_plasencia"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
4 2 0 16 9 12 1 2 0 16 9 12 1 2 0 16 9 12 1 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_jaraiz=
{
	liege="c_plasencia"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 0 10 19 12 8 14 0 10 19 12 8 14 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
c_alcantara=
{
	liege="d_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=gavelkind
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_gavelkind"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	law="city_contract_1"
	law="city_tax_1"
	law="iqta_contract_2"
	law="iqta_tax_1"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 1 11 15 8 10 13 1 11 15 8 10 13 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	history=
	{
		1022.1.1=
		{
			holder=45007
			liege="d_badajoz"
		}
		1045.1.1=
		{
			holder=3900
		}
		1060.1.1=
		{
			holder=3901
		}
		1066.9.15=
		{
			holder=108500
			holder=502165
		}
	}
	active=yes
[COLOR="#00FF00"]	conquest_culture="castillan"[/COLOR]
}
b_alcantara=
{
	liege="c_alcantara"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
1 1 4 8 4 8 12 1 4 8 4 8 12 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_coria=
{
	liege="c_alcantara"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
1 2 0 10 11 4 0 2 0 10 11 4 0 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_moraleja=
{
	liege="c_alcantara"
	holder=502165
	succession=open_elective
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_open_elective"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 1 19 15 12 4 3 1 19 15 12 4 3 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
c_caceres=
{
	liege="d_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=gavelkind
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_gavelkind"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	law="city_contract_1"
	law="city_tax_1"
	law="iqta_contract_2"
	law="iqta_tax_1"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
3 2 0 0 3 1 14 2 0 0 3 1 14 2 0 0 3 1 14 2 0 0 3 1 14 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	history=
	{
		1022.1.1=
		{
			holder=45007
			liege="d_badajoz"
		}
		1045.1.1=
		{
			holder=3900
		}
		1066.9.15=
		{
			holder=108500
			holder=502165
		}
	}
	active=yes
[COLOR="#00FF00"]	conquest_culture="castillan"[/COLOR]
}
b_caceres=
{
	liege="c_caceres"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 2 0 15 7 11 0 2 0 15 7 11 0 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_guadalupe=
{
	liege="c_caceres"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 2 0 17 7 12 1 2 0 17 7 12 1 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_trujillo=
{
	liege="c_caceres"
	holder=502165
	succession=open_elective
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_open_elective"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
4 0 9 10 14 1 10 0 9 10 14 1 10 0 9 10 14 1 10 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
c_badajoz=
{
	liege="d_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=gavelkind
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_gavelkind"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	law="city_contract_1"
	law="city_tax_1"
	law="iqta_contract_2"
	law="iqta_tax_1"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
4 2 0 7 14 9 12 2 0 7 14 9 12 2 0 7 14 9 12 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	history=
	{
		1022.1.1=
		{
			holder=45007
			liege="d_badajoz"
		}
		1045.1.1=
		{
			holder=3900
		}
		1066.9.15=
		{
			holder=108500
			holder=502165
		}
	}
	active=yes
[COLOR="#00FF00"]	conquest_culture="castillan"[/COLOR]
}
b_jerezdeloscaballeros=
{
	liege="c_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
2 4 0 3 2 13 1 4 0 3 2 13 1 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_badajoz=
{
	liege="c_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=turkish_succession
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_turkish_succession"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
3 4 0 6 2 1 11 4 0 6 2 1 11 4 0 6 2 1 11 4 0 6 2 1 11 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}
b_merida=
{
	liege="c_badajoz"
	holder=502165
	succession=open_elective
	gender=agnatic
	law="succ_open_elective"
	law="agnatic_succession"
	coat_of_arms=
	{
		data=
		{
4 1 10 15 9 7 12 1 10 15 9 7 12 1 10 15 9 7 12 		}
		religion_group="christian"
	}
	usurp_date="1066.9.15"
	last_change="1066.9.15"
	active=yes
}

The counties were handed out and the duchy given to the count. The flag is created for all counties, when conquered (new ruler).

 

[Zireael]

Well, the new mechanics will surely lead to some silly results.

 

[Dracko81]

Well, the new mechanics will surely lead to some silly results.

Don't know what you mean. If the ERE reconquered Rome and all of its old territory, do you not think they would spread thier culture?

 

[Zedwardson]

My current game one of the goals is make Ireland Norwegian, and while it is random, I am seeing steady progress on this.

Now the fact that Spain is almost all christian and increasingly Norwegian is a fun side effect.

 

[Theddude]

Is it not possible for culture to spread in a just because the top liege is not the appropriate culture? I would think that the fact of, say, a hypothetical HRE vassal Castilian King with all Castilian vassals wouldn't be able to spread Castilian culture at all just because his liege hundreds of miles away is a German. Culture change should be able to happen regardless of the top liege, it's already restricted to neighboring provinces and de jure culture of the province. If you don't want different cultures spreading, don't land vassals of that culture. Similarly, if I'm a French King, I should be able to appoint Catalans and Castilians in conquered Spanish lands and spread their culture into Andalusia rather than French culture. It would make much more sense than somehow turning it all Frankish.