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DanubianCossak

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And yet again you ignore Stećci... Is it the fourth time you ignored these unique monuments of Bosnian people? Why?

Kulin ban is long gone before the timeframe of EU3, but he wrote his charter in Bosančica, which gives the Bosnians their identity 200 years before the EU timeframe... And yet some of you claim that Bosnians never existed as a cultural group. You keep repeating the same questions, and I keep giving you the same answers, and Mrkela is right, we're going in circles here.

Unless you have some new questions to ask, I'll skip answering the same answers again.

FYI, we have no information about the number of followers of any church in the Western Balkans...

In your last post you said: "Man, I gave you a few links on the first page of this thread, they were wikipedia articles about Bosnian ban Kulin, and about Bosančica." so i answered link by link, i did not see a link for Bosančica or Stećci. But ok, lets answer those 2 as well.

What you call "unique monuments of Bosnian people" i call nothing but a custom that appeared during times of Bogumils: "Although its origins are within the Bosnian Church, all evidence points to the fact that Stećci were erected in due time by adherents of the Orthodox, Catholic and Islamic faith alike." (from their wiki article) which pretty much tells us that this is a custom that started during the Bosnian (heretic) Church, and was simply carried over later by next generations. They werent built by all people who lived there (or else youd have hundreds of thousands of them) but by smaller portion, and for that alone you cant call them a thing that separates all Bosnian people as one culture. Further more, customs alone are not enough to define cultures. As someone else mentioned, Dalmatia today, as it was a thousand years ago, is completely different in customs to northern Croatia, and so is Serbia in every single way (its probably even more drastic as the country's geography drastically changes).

Im not a linguist, so if someone knows better please correct me, but before this guy Vuk Stefanović Karadžić (19th century) no Ex Yu country had a universal and standardized system of writing. This is relevant to 10th+ century in terms that the only people literate at that time in our lands were the monks who lived in monasteries and copied over again and again various church scripts and books. We did have Cyrillic script but it was not a standardized alphabet, as in the same used by all, but it was more like a monastery-to-monastery free interpretation of that, so over time different version of it appeared in different areas, the way i see it, the language that it symbolized was more important than the style of its characters. This is something that you can use as argument for culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Cyrillic_language because we know a.) who developed it and b.) when it was developed. Furthermore when you go on to read where Bosančica was prominently used, this is the number one listed thing: "Passages from the Bible in documents of Bosnian Church adherents, 13th and 15th century.", which again makes perfect sense. If the heretic monks used an alphabet, it certainly wouldnt be the same as one used in Serbian Orthodox monasteries, since these Bogumil writings would never be allowed nowhere near. Instead they had to be written/rewritten by others, so thats how this different tradition appeared. Another interesting detail about this issue, when you scroll down on its wiki article, to the Controversies and polemic, the very last point states: "Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) scholars have always considered that the Bosnian Cyrillic is neither Croat nor Serb, but ethnically Bosnian and, subsequently, Bosniak, as the supposed ethnic successors of medieval Bosnia and the native Bosnian Church." which kind of illustrates what i was trying to say without saying it all along.
 

Bezborg

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Saying that a specific type of grave stone is enough to make a distinct cultural and ethnic entity is beyond ridiculous, especially in the last 1000 years. I feel ridiculous for even pointing this out.
 

DanubianCossak

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I don't know whose nation was claiming to be of Gothic decent during the time when beining Slavic wasn't really good :)

Nations dont claim anything, its (usually) the sick individuals who make such stupid claims ("Serbs are heavenly people" etc), and often they also appear to be "intellectuals" which is why i personally dont trust a single local of their kind any more.
 

unmerged(143766)

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Nations dont claim anything, its (usually) the sick individuals who make such stupid claims ("Serbs are heavenly people" etc), and often they also appear to be "intellectuals" which is why i personally dont trust a single local of their kind any more.
Yes but I have never heard a Bosnian "intelectual" talking about a Homo Bosniacus so that provocation simply wasn't right.
 

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So as I read it people are saying three different things are historical correct:
The entire kingdom of Bosnia have the Bosnic cultur
There is no Bosnic cultur group
In the kingdom of Bosnia there is a small hearthland belonging to the Bosnic cultur group

Reasons that the entire Bosnia should be Bosnic:
If PI don't change how rebels works then it would give us some very strange situations and countries if Bosnia isn't Bosnic

Reasons that there should be no Bosnic cultur group:
The dynamics have worked well without them before
A bosnic hearthland would be to small a cultur group

I haven't seen any reasons for a small Bosnic hearthland, but if Hungary conqueres Bosnia and we have Bosnic as a small hearthland cultur, but the cultur of Bosnia then wouldn't it work just as well as if we gave the entire country the Bosnic cultur?
 

DanubianCossak

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So as I read it people are saying three different things are historical correct:
The entire kingdom of Bosnia have the Bosnic cultur
There is no Bosnic cultur group
In the kingdom of Bosnia there is a small hearthland belonging to the Bosnic cultur group

Reasons that the entire Bosnia should be Bosnic:
If PI don't change how rebels works then it would give us some very strange situations and countries if Bosnia isn't Bosnic

Reasons that there should be no Bosnic cultur group:
The dynamics have worked well without them before
A bosnic hearthland would be to small a cultur group

I haven't seen any reasons for a small Bosnic hearthland, but if Hungary conqueres Bosnia and we have Bosnic as a small hearthland cultur, but the cultur of Bosnia then wouldn't it work just as well as if we gave the entire country the Bosnic cultur?

No it wouldnt work just as well, because in that case, if Bosnia rebelled from Hungary, the country that is of Bosnian culture as primary culture (Bosnia) would only rebel in province that has its culture (1 province if it doesnt get the culture spread event before its annexed) the rest of what was Bosnia before it was annexed would defect to Serbia (Serbian provinces, or any other Serbian country is Serbia doesnt exist) and Croatian province(s) would defect either to Croatia (if it exists) or to Serbia (if no country of Croatian culture exists) or another Serbian cultured country (best alternative choice).

But remember this is talking in EU3 language. We have no idea of how things would work in EU4, if rebels would work in the same way at all.
 

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So as I read it people are saying three different things are historical correct:
The entire kingdom of Bosnia have the Bosnic cultur
There is no Bosnic cultur group
In the kingdom of Bosnia there is a small hearthland belonging to the Bosnic cultur group

Reasons that the entire Bosnia should be Bosnic:
If PI don't change how rebels works then it would give us some very strange situations and countries if Bosnia isn't Bosnic

Reasons that there should be no Bosnic cultur group:
The dynamics have worked well without them before
A bosnic hearthland would be to small a cultur group

I haven't seen any reasons for a small Bosnic hearthland, but if Hungary conqueres Bosnia and we have Bosnic as a small hearthland cultur, but the cultur of Bosnia then wouldn't it work just as well as if we gave the entire country the Bosnic cultur?

I tend to agree, adding a culture changes alot of the "nations" behaviour that are currently occupying that same "land" or any area around it. Because I remember in EU 3 nations tended to conquer territory if it was in their culture group.

So you would have to ask the question: What does adding Bosnian culture or culture group exactly add to the game play and the area near that amount of provinces. And is this resulting effect satisfactory for game play balance and purpose or does this do in fact the opposite, create a dis-balance and result in skewed gameplay results that is not satisfactory.

Adding a small culture group to an already fractured region creates more dis-balance where there already is a fragile balance in the first place.

But this is just my insight...
 

DanubianCossak

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In EU3 terms, adding Bosnian culture would reduce the change that Serbia could appear in Bosnia and vice versa. It would reduce the possible weirdness only if you make entire Bosnia Bosnian. If you dont make the whole country Bosnian, you will again improve its chances to appear as a revolter, but at the same time, all provinces around it that are of different culture will defect to other countries instead (since all of that is defined primarily by culture), so in the end you will have weird results, like Serbia popping up in Bosnia (only it will happen in historically plausible area, but still weird as they were never owned by Serbia). If you make whole thing Serbian, it reduces chances of Bosnia and Serbia both coexisting (which was the case) as in such situation patriot rebels will be preferred to nationalist, leading to situation where you will either have one country own all or other.

As you can see none of those solutions is perfect, they all have their advantages, the best thing would be for Paradox to rework the entire rebel mechanic.
 

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What about specific "Balkan" rebels for example, which based on the currently occopied regions would spawn either Serbia Bosnia or Croatia.

For example: The rebels currently occupy 1 serbian province 1 bosnian province and 2 croatian provinces. Instead of letting 2 OPMS and one 2 provinces minor popup, it would spawn a croatia with 4 provinces. This could work due to putting croatian, bosnian and serbian under 1 culture group. Not only would this increase the surviving change of the rebel state. It would also nullifiy any OPMS rebelling and getting annexed within a year( or mostly faster) due to being too weak to defend themselves.

This could be applied to all culture groups.

EDIT:
I forgot that some rebels already produce cores when succesfully sieging and conquering a province, and that the likely hood of producing 1 nation instead of multiple is already more less taken care by this.
 
Last edited:

DanubianCossak

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It doesnt work like that in EU3 (as for what they could do for EU4, only God knows, but i hope it will be improved compared to what we have right now which is real bad sometimes). In EU3 if you have one culture in a province, and if there is at least one core in that province that doesnt exist on a map, it will most likely spawn nationalist rebel stack (patriot rebels will be preferred in some circumstances). If nationalist rebel is chosen (as preferred rebel type) and then spawned, it gets attached to a single tag, in this case it would be BOS tag. It will besiege that province, and if its successful, and if the province doesnt have its core, it will add BOS core to that province. After that, it will pick another Serbian cultured province owned by Hungary and move there. If there is no other Serbian cultured province owned by Hungary (afaik) it should pick another Serbian cultured province owned by someone else who isnt Serbian culture (as primary culture), and if there is no such country, it will just stand there and wait. If it stands there and waits, or if it hasnt yet started moving to another province it picks, and a Hungarian stack comes and beats it, if its not destroyed, it will retreat to some other Serbian province (this time it doesnt matter if the country is Serbian primary culture) and then it will besiege that country's province too, still spreading BOS core and trying to liberate BOS, and THIS is the 99.99% of reasons why we see messed up rebellions in EU3 all the time. If you add Bosnian culture to a single province, this is reduced, but in that case, BOS nationalist stack wont move (if theres just 1 Bosnian culture province), but still patriot rebels will spawn in other provinces, according to culture, and they will often cause same problems (for example, if Serbian provinces in Bosnia owned by Hungary spawn SER patriots, and they are beaten, they CAN retreat to Montenegro, beat MON army, besiege MON's only province and immediately defect it to Serbia which is, well, idiotic, to put it mildly).
 

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So my idea about culture group rebels instead of specific culture rebels ? Would that work ? Or is that too shabby.

So spawning a nation based on the rebels which occupy the most provinces of a culture within culture group, and letting the other cultures of the same group join them into the nation rebelling.
For example: The rebels currently occupy 1 serbian province 1 bosnian province and 2 croatian provinces. Instead of letting 2 OPMS and one 2 provinces minor popup, it would spawn a croatia with 4 provinces. This could work due to putting croatian, bosnian and serbian under 1 culture group.
 

DanubianCossak

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So my idea about culture group rebels instead of specific culture rebels ? Would that work ? Or is that too shabby.

So spawning a nation based on the rebels which occupy the most provinces of a culture within culture group, and letting the other cultures of the same group join them into the nation rebelling.

A system that only spawned nationalist rebels without attaching them to a single core, would IMO be a great improvement, if not the best possible solution. In such case, they would fight to free as many provinces of their culture (or to occupy them) and after the defection conditions are met (2 years owning provinces) they would then free all individual countries. The only problem then becomes how you define what individual countries are. For example, what is Serbian in 1399. might change in 1450, etc, context can change, but i suppose an acceptable solution would be to liberate countries based on region. But that would require lots of work, and im not sure Paradox is willing to do it that way. They could probably come with some other rebel system that uses less resources.

edit: theyre smart, they can handle it, whats important is that we tell them that this system needs to be reworked.
 

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A system that only spawned nationalist rebels without attaching them to a single core, would IMO be a great improvement, if not the best possible solution. In such case, they would fight to free as many provinces of their culture (or to occupy them) and after the defection conditions are met (2 years owning provinces) they would then free all individual countries. The only problem then becomes how you define what individual countries are. For example, what is Serbian in 1399. might change in 1450, etc, context can change, but i suppose an acceptable solution would be to liberate countries based on region. But that would require lots of work, and im not sure Paradox is willing to do it that way. They could probably come with some other rebel system that uses less resources.

edit: theyre smart, they can handle it, whats important is that we tell them that this system needs to be reworked.

Well we could certainly hope a Paradoxian is reading this and goes :wub: this is the best ******* idea ever. :p
 

Skyhunteren

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So if PI changes and improve the rebel system, then we are down to something like:

Reasons that there should be no Bosnic cultur group:
The dynamics have worked well without them before
A bosnic hearthland would be to small a cultur group

Do we have any good gameplay reason to bring in a Bosnic cultur or are there any parts of Balkan that will be simulated better with it?

There is of course always the joy of painting the map with your own cultural colour (and whipe away those bloody swedes!) but bessides that?
 

Jia Xu

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To be fair, there are one province cultures in EU3. As far as I know, Galician is in exactly one province, for example. It wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to have Bosnian culture in two provinces or whatever. I just wouldn't want to see it happen for no reason other than to pacify Bosnian nationalists on the internet.
 

DanubianCossak

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I dont think anyone was ever arguing for Bosnian (not Bosnic) culture group, but culture (everybody seem to agree that were all South Slav, which is a culture group).

Its hard to cast judgement as to what would be the best, to do so, i would first need to see the game and how the rebels work.

As to whats best for game itself (from Paradox point of view) that would probably depend on the design philosophy and design vision of the person in charge, which should be Project Lead. I got no idea what they want, but lets hope we'll get a Balkan DD, if for no other reason, then for the lulz.
 
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