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Registered

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bwyb00 said:
- I would like to see the Frisian culture disapear. I know it makes sense to keep it for "historic" reason, but if you want too play Netherlands in the AGC-EEP, as there is only a 1419 scenario, your only choice is to play Friesland or Gelderland, and the only thing you can do at the beginning for each one is to annex the other.
Not so. Brabant can also form the Netherlands, and makes for a much easier game. The same is true for Flanders i think though Burgundy would have to release it first. Secondly i think that history is pretty good eason to keep it in the game. Thirdly it would be accurate, the area wasn't even remotely subjugated untill Charles V came along.
 

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Well there are 2 for and 2 against the Frisian culture motion, so I've introduced a colour scheme in order to differentiate between those proposals which are being contested and those which as of yet, remain uncontested.

On the Frisian culture note, perhaps we should bear in mind the game effects of culture and weigh that carefully on our descision to either keep it or remove it; religious difficulty, troop recruitment difficulties, and tax evation etc.
Kennelly said:
Why do you think I want to protest this move?
Kennelly said:
ribbon22 said:
'Huron' and 'Iroquois' cultures should be united into "Iroquoian". This saves us a culture tag :)
I'm not exactly into that...
as you can see, you protested merging Huron and Iroquois cultures into 'Iroquoian' culture. I merely pointed out that the Huron, Iroquois and Cherokee were going back into the game. Merging all native nations cultures into 'native' culture is quite different than merging regional neighbours who share a similar culture into one broader culture. Which is again different from merging all empty provinces into a single 'native' culture. So it sometimes helps to elaborate when it comes to these kinds of things. Regardless, we share the same opinion, as you say.
Kennelly said:
I don't understand why you remind me to "keep this thread clean",when YOU suggest the same thing!
I was referring to in-depth debates about cultural changes, nothing more, and the comment was directed to the community, not just you. It is my personal preference to see in-depth cultural debates occuring in the proper regional thread. That's all.
 
Last edited:

bwyb00

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ribbon22 said:
On the Frisian culture note, perhaps we should bear in mind the game effects of culture and weigh that carefully on our descision to either keep it or remove it; religious difficulty, troop recruitment difficulties, and tax evation etc.
I am mainly focusing on Gelderland at this time and the problem i have is you gain no man power from the annexed Friesland. I guess removing the Frisian culture will solve this issue, but if the Frisian culture is important for any good reason, something else should be done to give Gelderland a little man power from the Friesen province.
Registered said:
Not so. Brabant can also form the Netherlands, and makes for a much easier game.
Thats true, Friesland and Gelderland are not the only one, but personnaly i think Brabant should not be selected by a human player, it is too important for the Burgundy scenario.


Culture is a touchy subject, you shoud better remove this thread before somes dude claim for a Flemish culture :D
 

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As long as Swiss culture is kept, I cannot understand why removing Frisian is even contemplated. Both Swiss and Frisian are in mostly due to their unique political structure and identity that distinguished them from the neighboring states - I think nobody will argue that it's hard to imagine the Frisian "republic" (or rather anarchy ;) ) taking over the County of Holland or the Duchy of Geldre without much resistance, and there are several examples of what happened when the Counts of Holland (no matter if they were Wittelsbachs, Valois or Hapsburgs) tried to subjugate Friesland - and Friesland has in addition, differently from Helvetia, a unique ethnicity and language.
All ingame effects - higher revoltrisk, lower taxes, difficulty to convert, less manpower - are justified both for a Dutch or German country trying to rule Friesland and for Friesland trying to rule Dutch or German territories.
That said, Gelderland should be able to gain Frisian culture if it chooses to protect the Frisians against Hapsburg Burgundy.
If there is a problem about Frisian being a one-province culture, replacing Oldenburg by East Friesland might be an option.
 
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Regarding German culture, I think the problem about a split into Lower, Middle and Upper German is that this isn't really an "intuitive" and "organic" way of splitting it up - these names just do not ring, and if German culture is split up there should be five different cultures (Bavarian, Swabian, Franconian, Saxon and Low Saxon) - and that the split actually does not solve the most important issue of preventing Austria from gobbling up large parts of the HRE - Austria would still be able to annex Bavaria and Swabia without cultural problems and be better off doing it than keeping the territories as vassals. Thus I wonder what would be the point in it - this looks worse than a unified German culture, is hard to justify on the base of accuracy (especially with Swiss culture still in existance), will not improve gameplay much and reduce the potential of German countries besides Austria, especially Brandenburg, that can be very useful and nice for balance, in multiplayer games.
 

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Why don't we remove Maltese from the game and change Malta to Italian?Usually there are four nations,which control Malta during a game.For OE no difference,they neither have Italian or Maltese;Same goes for Spain.The Knights have Italian anyway,so also no change for them.The only difference would be there are no longer cultural penalties for Aragon,but Malta isn't so rich in taxes or manpower,it will really affect Aragon.Also,I don't think there were so many Maltese revolts it justifies the increased revoltrisk if the culture tags could be better used elsewhere.
 

bwyb00

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One more word about the Frisian culture...
It introduced a bug, if you form Netherland starting from Friesland (wich means you are very good) You will get a Netherland with Frisian as only culture... argh!

If there was a slider to influence the behaviour of the "AGCEEP High Council" i would turn it one notch to "conservative" ;)
 

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Added Kenneley's suggestion to the list.

bwyb00 said:
One more word about the Frisian culture...
It introduced a bug, if you form Netherland starting from Friesland (wich means you are very good) You will get a Netherland with Frisian as only culture... argh!
this could be changed via an event that gave the Netherlands Dutch state culture. Or by making sure the Netherlands can't form from Friesland - ppl will complain about this suggestion I'm sure.

EDIT:
Twoflower said:
...Thus I wonder what would be the point in it - this looks worse than a unified German culture, is hard to justify on the base of accuracy (especially with Swiss culture still in existance)...
I don't see how splitting up German culture (ie. taking a more microscopic perspective on cultures in our project) makes the existance of Swiss culture less accurate, if anything wouldn't this make Swiss culture look more accurate?

Posted the alternative German split aswell.
 
Last edited:

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Twoflower said:
Regarding German culture, I think the problem about a split into Lower, Middle and Upper German is that this isn't really an "intuitive" and "organic" way of splitting it up - these names just do not ring, and if German culture is split up there should be five different cultures (Bavarian, Swabian, Franconian, Saxon and Low Saxon) - and that the split actually does not solve the most important issue of preventing Austria from gobbling up large parts of the HRE - Austria would still be able to annex Bavaria and Swabia without cultural problems and be better off doing it than keeping the territories as vassals. Thus I wonder what would be the point in it - this looks worse than a unified German culture, is hard to justify on the base of accuracy (especially with Swiss culture still in existance), will not improve gameplay much and reduce the potential of German countries besides Austria, especially Brandenburg, that can be very useful and nice for balance, in multiplayer games.

I have to agree. Splitting German culture would make any German nation much, much weaker. 30% taxes is huge. And really, would the people of "lower" Germany give as many problems to being ruled by "upper" Germans as they would to say them being ruled by turkish culture? The results would be the same.
It would be unrealistic and make Austria and Brandenberg weaker and therefore streangthen France. No one wants a stronger France.
 

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Joe000000 said:
I have to agree. Splitting German culture would make any German nation much, much weaker. 30% taxes is huge. And really, would the people of "lower" Germany give as many problems to being ruled by "upper" Germans as they would to say them being ruled by turkish culture? The results would be the same.
It would be unrealistic and make Austria and Brandenberg weaker and therefore streangthen France. No one wants a stronger France.

Basically it is a good idea to weaken Austria as they still annex 80% of Germany during a game,unless one of their main adversaries is player controlled.And,yes,it should be quite difficult for Austria or Bavaria to rule Northern Germany.Lower German language was far more used in the 15th and 16th century here in the North than today,and after 1517 religion draw an even bigger line between North and South Germans.The comparison with Turkish is too far off,but it should certainly be as difficult for Austria to rule Oldenburg than for the Netherlands or Denmark.
However,the point about strengthening France is a concern,but the introduction of Lotharingian or whatever could reestablish the balance.
 
Last edited:

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I suggest
Code:
#Creation of the Dutch Republic#
event = {

	id = 28001
	trigger = {
			owned = {
					province = 337
					data = -1
				}
			owned = {
					province = 338
					data = -1
				}
			owned = {
					province = 339
					data = -1
				}
			owned = {
					province = 340
					data = -1
				}
			owned = {
					province = 378
					data = -1
				}
			owned = {
					province = 380
					data = -1
				}
			NOT = {
				exists = HOL
				}
		}
	random = no
	country = FRI
	name = "EVENTNAME28000"
	desc = "EVENTHIST28001"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1559 }
	offset = 3600
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1648 }

	action_a ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME28001A"
		command = { type = vp value = 200 }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk   which = 48 value = 8 } 
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = 3 }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = gainbuilding   which = -1 value = bailiff } 
		command = { type = gainbuilding   which = -1 value = bailiff } 
		command = { type = gainbuilding   which = -1 value = bailiff }  
		command = { type = gainbuilding   which = -1 value = bailiff } 
		command = { type = gainbuilding   which = -1 value = courthouse }  
		command = { type = gainbuilding   which = -1 value = courthouse }
	}

	action_b ={
		name = "ACTIONNAME28002B"
		command = { type = vp value = -200 }
		command = { type = inflation value = 10 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = country which = HOL }
		command = { type = religion   which = reformed } 
		command = { type = sleepevent   which = 3900 } 
		command = { type = domestic which = CENTRALIZATION value = -5 }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = -3 }
		command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = 2 }
		command = { type = domestic which = QUALITY value = -3 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 337 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 338 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 339 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 340 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 378 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 380 }
                [color=red]command = { type = addculture which = dutch}[/color]
	}
}
Although other countries (FLA, GEL, HAU) need to add Frisian if they form the Netherlands.
Kennelly said:
Basically it is a good idea to weaken Austria as they still annex 80% of Germany during a game,unless one of their main adversaries is player controlled.And,yes,it should be quite difficult for Austria or Bavaria to rule Northern Germany.Lower German language was far more used in the 15th and 16th century here in the North than today,and after 1517 religion draw an even bigger line between North and South Germans.The comparison with Turkish is too far off,but it should certainly be as difficult for Austria to rule Oldenburg than for the Netherlands or Denmark.
The religious question really ought to be considered seperately, and from the very beginning the real hotbeds of the reformation were in south Germany, not in the north. Big chunks of Northern Germany remained catholic, just a lerge parts of Southern Germany became and remained protestant.
The real question is whether the linguisitic difference made a difference in terms of how effectively states could rule other parts of Germany. Did the Hohenzollerns have difficulties ruling Bayreuth or Ansbach? How about the Wittelsbachs in Münster? Heck, even the Hapsburgs in Silesia or Lusatia?

I say, no, they didn't. There was certainly a strong sense of the German nation that was well above the linguistic differences.

edit: Malta shouldn't be Italian. If it's not to be Maltese the only reasonable cultures are Arabic and Berber.
 
Last edited:

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Nice work with the Dutch Republic event, Isaac.
Isaac Brock said:
Malta shouldn't be Italian. If it's not to be Maltese the only reasonable cultures are Arabic and Berber.
Added this to the list. Kennelly, if you can weigh in on this that'd be good.

EDIT:surely there is an appropriate way in handling the state cultures in Germany, so that problems such as Isaac and Twoflower have raised would be addressed with regard to splitting German culture up. Just thought I'd raise that point - if you could call it that :D
 
Last edited:

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The religious question really ought to be considered seperately, and from the very beginning the real hotbeds of the reformation were in south Germany, not in the north. Big chunks of Northern Germany remained catholic, just a lerge parts of Southern Germany became and remained protestant.
The real question is whether the linguisitic difference made a difference in terms of how effectively states could rule other parts of Germany. Did the Hohenzollerns have difficulties ruling Bayreuth or Ansbach? How about the Wittelsbachs in Münster? Heck, even the Hapsburgs in Silesia or Lusatia?

.

Are we talking about the same Germany?Of course there are some catholic islands like the Hildesheim area or the Eichsfeld in Thuringia,but Northern and Eastern Germany became overwhelmingly Protestant in contrast to Western and Southern Germany where the population remained mostly Catholic,though there are some exceptions like Baden or parts of Bavaria,which actually has the second biggest Lutheran church community in Germany.
 

Kennelly

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Malta is really a difficult case.The people are of Romanic origin,though with strong Arabic influence.The language then is of Arabic origin,but with strong Italian influence.I'd still argue for Italian out of two reasons:

-religion.The Maltese people are heavily rooted in their Catholic faith,so we shouldn't give them the main culture of Islam
-gameplay.Up till now,the Knights had no problems on Malta.So we could either give them Arabic/Berber (very bad idea) or the Knights would have to suffer from the cultural penalty in their only province,which would kill them IMO.With Italian,all these problems don't exist.
 

unmerged(6159)

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Kennelly said:
Are we talking about the same Germany?Of course there are some catholic islands like the Hildesheim area or the Eichsfeld in Thuringia,but Northern and Eastern Germany became overwhelmingly Protestant in contrast to Western and Southern Germany where the population remained mostly Catholic,though there are some exceptions like Baden or parts of Bavaria,which actually has the second biggest Lutheran church community in Germany.
Which is hardly surprising given that various cities in modern Bavaria were strong exponents of the reformation from the very beginning. Not to mention that quite aside from Baden, Wurtemburg played an important role in the reformation. The generalization that northern Germany = protestant and southern Germany = catholic is a massive simplification. Most of Westphalia was Catholic. The early reformation picked up much of it's support in Southern Germany. The reformation was as sucessful in the Archduchy of Austria as it was anywhere else - it just never received any state support. Relgion in Germany was very diverse.

But all of that is beside the point. My concern is that in any case you care to name of Northern Germans ruling Southern Germans, and vice versa, you'd be extremely hard pressed to find any evidence that there was anything resembling the penalties that you get for cultural difference in EUII.
 

Toio

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Kennelly said:
Are we talking about the same Germany?Of course there are some catholic islands like the Hildesheim area or the Eichsfeld in Thuringia,but Northern and Eastern Germany became overwhelmingly Protestant in contrast to Western and Southern Germany where the population remained mostly Catholic,though there are some exceptions like Baden or parts of Bavaria,which actually has the second biggest Lutheran church community in Germany.

Why not have the RHENISH (new) culture represent Eichsfeld in Thuringia as it really was.?
 

Norrefeldt

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I have made a link for this thread in the first post of the Culture tag sticky.
I think there is a game play point in removing Maltese (as have been mentioned), though people will probably question it. You can argue that in RL it is enough different from other cultures to deserve one of its own. Italian makes most sense in the game, since Aragon, the Knights and an Italian state should have no serious troubles. Arabic and Berber might be more correct from an historical point of view, but there are several nations with these cultures that shouldnt have such an easy time governing it. I'm leaning towards Italian, or just keeping the old one.
 

yuje

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Merge Taureg with Berber. It's the southern branch of the Berber language. As it is, no country in the game has Taureg culture, there's only a single province with a Taureg population aside from when you set up trading posts, and no country can get any manpower out of that province.

Change Kalmyk religion back to Sunni. Yes, modern day Kalmyks are Buddhist, but the Kalmyks didn't settle in the region until the 17th century, when they were kicked out of Asia by the Chinese. And they are Mongols, not Tartars, so the setup is still unrealistic.
 

Yakman

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Indeed. It should change to Mongol and Buddhist by event... say when Russia takes control of Buriat where they were originally from?