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Cenobite30

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Why would it represent the ruling nobility? That's what the barons/higher tier characters are for.

Well, it might represent them if they are not actually represented in-game, the nobility that exists beyond counts, dukes and kings.

Let's say King A of culture 1 (and B of 2, C of 3, etc.) conquers a culture 2 county that has been owned by King B's family for 500 years. Presumably, all levels of society would be pretty much exclusively culture 2. Now let's say King A conquers county from King C that King C conquered from King B 50 years ago. We would probably expect the peasantry to still be largely of culture 2, but whatever people who function as lesser nobles or administrators could be either culture 2 or culture 3. In this case, it's quite relevant to know precisely who is represented by the province's culture.

My knowledge of the time period is clearly less than others here, so I will defer to them. I just wanted to point out that the culture of local and/or national ruling class often differed from the culture of those being ruled, so a decision that would have to be made with regard to who exactly was represented.
 
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Just to throw another log in the fire. Should the method of acquiring that new County (area, whatever) play into how long it takes to change the culture? FE - I inherit a new County, it should take a long, long time to change that culture and/or language (if ever even) because I'd have to go in and usurp an in-place and fully functioning Culture from the top down.

While if I had invaded and captured it with my army, an entire generation of men would have been killed off, leaving a vacumn for my people to move into, which would speed up culture and/or lanquage change.
 

Tommy4ever

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The OP's proposals seem overly complicated and utterly pointless. Having read through the entire thread I can see that he has simply refused to tell us the purpose of complicating things beyond saying ''it'll make things more accurate'' and even that is debateable.

So I'm not in favour of this idea.
 

Calgacus

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The purpose of the proposal is outlined in the OP (which is there to be read for anyone who wishes to comment). It definitely would make it more accurate, which is not "utterly pointless" by any means.
 

King of Men

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Yes, it is. Accuracy is only good if it creates good gameplay, and (like any feature) should only be implemented if there is no other investment of effort that will give a better return in gameplay. This level of detail in culture is far, far down the list of what will support better gameplay; the current culture system in CK1 works perfectly fine.

That said, as Tommy points out, you're clearly not out for an actual debate on the point. I take comfort in knowing that Paradox will pay attention to what makes a good game, not a good history-book, and will therefore ignore your suggestion.
 

Calgacus

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Meh ... if you say so. The accuracy versus gameplay point is completely fatuous. This thread is about starting off on the basis of accuracy, and working out gameplay issues from there. Those who'd bothered reading the OP know that. :p
 

King of Men

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And as multiple people have pointed out, that's the wrong way to do it. It's no good saying "I'm doing X, not Y!" when the objection is that X is wrong.
 

Calgacus

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Some people have asserted such a thing, doesn't mean it's sensible. The entire concept of CK is about starting from a historical base, and working out the gameplay from there. So to start 'arguing' (i.e. asserting) that this shouldn't be done ... well ... it's not very convincing. ;)

There is plenty of room for discussion and debate on this that doesn't require me to repeat over and over what I've already said in the OP and go around in circles on the same worthless point. I'm trying to be helpful ... but honestly, people need to read the OP.
 

King of Men

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Well. At a quick guess, something like ten people other than yourself have posted in the thread. And none of them liked your idea. And what's your response? You assert that nobody can possibly have read your post, because if we had, then we'd be arguing differently - falling all over ourselves to agree with you, no doubt, with only a little bit of room for nitpicking (er, excuse me, "discussion and debate") on whether 'African Romance' is a legitimate category, or ought to be replaced by "West African Romance", "East African Romance", and "Arabic-influenced East African Romance with Tuareg loanwords". It doesn't work that way. If we don't like your idea, you don't get to assume that we didn't understand it. Even if that's true, then it's your job to make it clearer.

Or, of course, you can retire in bitter loneliness and nurse your Great Culture Idea, secure in the knowledge that they also laughed at Einstein and Galileo and misunderstood Newton and Heisenberg. Take your choice.
 

Calgacus

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Well. At a quick guess, something like ten people other than yourself have posted in the thread. And none of them liked your idea. And what's your response? You assert that nobody can possibly have read your post, because if we had, then we'd be arguing differently - falling all over ourselves to agree with you, no doubt, with only a little bit of room for nitpicking (er, excuse me, "discussion and debate") on whether 'African Romance' is a legitimate category, or ought to be replaced by "West African Romance", "East African Romance", and "Arabic-influenced East African Romance with Tuareg loanwords". It doesn't work that way. If we don't like your idea, you don't get to assume that we didn't understand it. Even if that's true, then it's your job to make it clearer.

Or, of course, you can retire in bitter loneliness and nurse your Great Culture Idea, secure in the knowledge that they also laughed at Einstein and Galileo and misunderstood Newton and Heisenberg. Take your choice.

This constant incivility and straw men, King of Men, demeans only yourself.

You may want to go over the thread again though, there are lots of positive comments (though I didn't count if there were more than against) ...
 

Kuipy

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The "dynamic culture" part is overcomplicated but I would indeed like to have culture groups breaking down in smaller cultures. It was not the same for a Swede to rule Danes or to rule Nubians, yet in CK 1 it was. As for the coding work there is a very similar system in EU3 that they can pilfer for a base.

Failing that it would actually be better to have less cultures, each corresponding to a culture group.
 

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Accuracy is only good if it creates good gameplay
This is silly. The reason I play Paradox games is because they have a complex historical simulation that most historical games do not. I like history, so accuracy is fun. A game that accurately (or more accurately) portrays history is fun.

There are plenty of historical games with much better gameplay in the way you define it, i.e. have better balance, more thoughtful game mechanics, more consistent design, etc. Civ 4 is a good example. Civ 4 is also a much worse simulation of history. It's fun in a different way, a way that I don't need or want Paradox games to be.
 

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This is silly. The reason I play Paradox games is because they have a complex historical simulation that most historical games do not. I like history, so accuracy is fun. A game that accurately (or more accurately) portrays history is fun.

I love Paradox too, but their games are not historical simulators, they are games set in a certain period, I mean, you've played CK, EU3, Vic2, HOI3 right? In fact all of their games rarely if ever had a true historical route.
 

ZhugeKongming

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They're not particularly great historical simulators, it's true, but that is in fact what they are. All or nearly all of the mechanics of a Paradox game are related in some way to a historical concept or process. You can't say the same of Civ or Age of Empires or what have you.

And anyway, you're confusing "historical simulator" with "plays exactly like history every time." That wouldn't be a game. That would be educational software.
 

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They're not particularly great historical simulators, it's true, but that is in fact what they are. All or nearly all of the mechanics of a Paradox game are related in some way to a historical concept or process. You can't say the same of Civ or Age of Empires or what have you.

And anyway, you're confusing "historical simulator" with "plays exactly like history every time." That wouldn't be a game. That would be educational software.

By definition a 'historical simulator' would do that, I'd say you're confusing the terms 'simulator' with 'game'. I enjoy historicity in games, and prefer say EU3 to Civ4 by a large margin, but I'm under no illusion as to how fun needlessly complicated mechanics (which would probably bring up a whole host of problems) can be. I'd be perfectly happy with a simpler culture system, or even a POP system.
 

Tommy4ever

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This constant incivility and straw men, King of Men, demeans only yourself.

You may want to go over the thread again though, there are lots of positive comments (though I didn't count if there were more than against) ...

The way in which you've acted throughout this thread could drive anyone to 'incivility'.
 

Calgacus

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They're not particularly great historical simulators, it's true, but that is in fact what they are. All or nearly all of the mechanics of a Paradox game are related in some way to a historical concept or process. You can't say the same of Civ or Age of Empires or what have you.

And anyway, you're confusing "historical simulator" with "plays exactly like history every time." That wouldn't be a game. That would be educational software.

This is, roughly, my view. I liked the way EU2 did it, before they dumbed it down in EU3. It doesn't need to be like EU2 of course, but this aspect is the reason many of us were drawn to the games here. It's not like they have ever been great "games" either. They're pretty easy to get good at. I play them for the historical "simulation". Civ4 is a game that is less historical, but more challenging, and thus appealing in a different way.
 

ZhugeKongming

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By definition a 'historical simulator' would do that, I'd say you're confusing the terms 'simulator' with 'game'.
Uhh, sorry, but popular usage of the term simulator/sim does not really match yours, especially in the context of computer software. SimCity (it's got "sim" right in the name!) is a city simulator; do you not consider it to be a game as well?
 

Mr. Capiatlist

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Uhh, sorry, but popular usage of the term simulator/sim does not really match yours, especially in the context of computer software. SimCity (it's got "sim" right in the name!) is a city simulator; do you not consider it to be a game as well?

That really depends... there is a very thick grey zone between a simulator and a game. Duke Nukem is obviously a game, and so is Medal of Honor... but MoH skirts the sim realm. Hawks is obviously a game, but I would never call Microsoft Flight Simulator a game (at least not at the higher difficulties). The problem is that realism isn't always fun, there is a reason people play games and that is to get away from real life. Realism drives Paradox games, but I have never found it to be an over-the-top realism. Things eventually have to be abstracted. Stability is not just a number between -3 and 3, research is not just a slider to be set at max and never moved again. There is a lot more to real life, but I don't see all that getting argued for. Victoria and Victoria II are very, very realistic... but they are also more of a cult favorite. If games were made to be 100% realistic, they wouldn't be popular except with a very narrow band of people, which is not the point of a game company, really.

My suggestion is drop this non-sense, let Paradox come out with their inevitably simpler (and better) system for culture. Then YOU guys can program yours in. I seriously believe you will not get very far due to lack of support, lack of interest, and lack of ability to implement what you are actually discussing.

Personally I found SimCity to only be fun when the unrealistic things were happening, like alien attacks. Other than that I found it dull, tedious, and more often then not out-right boring. Even that has very little realism, building take weeks, not years to build; you never have to be elected, problems are solved either by throwing money at the problem or demolishing a few buildings. I hardly count that as realism. SimEarth was even less realistic (but a better game).

Though I guess a game is defined more by the person. I find math to be fun, probably more fun then most "games". If given the choice to program or play a first person shooter I'll program any day. But I guess that the recent gaming industry is having a problem with the whole "realism" thing.

Realism should never do the following:
- Decrease the fun of a game; games should be fun. I don't care if handballs are a foul, I play FIFA11 for fun, not because I secretly wish I had been a pro-baller.
- Cause the programmers to pull their hair out. If they come to loathe their project it will show in the final product
- Exist solely to exist. Realism is a nice thing to brag about in the press release, but honestly... EUII sucked. True it was fun to try to challenge history... but it was so predictable. Austria would always be the big baddies, Burgundy stood no chance, Spain would win all the HRE elections.
- Remain completely unattached. There needs to be a reason for this to exist! This is a combination of all three of the above. If a programmer is going to spend time on it, it should be there for a reason, and that reason should be making the game fun. This means balancing, this means expanding upon old ideas in proactive ways. It does not mean overly complicated ideas suggested solely to name characters or take the place of human interaction with the game. At some point it must end, some amount of realism must be left behind. Ahistoric realism and permutations are usually the first thing to go. The programmers can only take into consideration so many alternate histories, and usually the best way to be fair about it is to ignore them all together (for the good of everyone).

Here is how your idea violates all of those:

1) Having so many cultures will probably slow the game down, especially if they have some sort of relations between one another. Slow, buggy games are a huge ire to players and programmers alike. Check out the player reactions to HoI III and Vicky II in their early stages. Slow games are not fun, because they become frustrating.

2) This will cause people to pull their hair out, especially if applied in such a way other than naming characters. If you really want people to go through making name for permutations of different cultures, they will go nuts, and then the effect might not even be seen in the game anyways because Scotland might not conquer Africa to begin with.

3) I think this has been proven pretty reliably. People keep begging the question: what good is your system? And stop saying realism. I am serious. We get that it is more realistic, why is more realistic better? And don't say because it is more realistic, that isn't a proper response. What about the realism makes it better? What is it going to be used for? What can we do with it? Why is it going to be more useful? Why not just simplify it?

4) Since you, nor any of your (few) supporters can even think of something this can do in game (other than be used for names), I have to assume that you idea violates this clause. What exactly stops me from just assuming some of these things? In my AAR Croatian crusaders conquer Edessa and manage to hold it, and later other traditionally Arabic realms through the modern age. I knew, as well as you do, that they would not remain Croatian for long... in game they eventually became Arabic, but I knew that they were actually "Qurats", or Croatian-Arab, I didn't need a stupid model, I didn't need a pop up or a premade culture system to tell me this. This, children, is role playing; and apparently it is a dying art.