Is there a culture melting pot for Norse which have conquered england? I consider to adopt the culture of the anglo saxons.
Culture melting pot for England-Norse?
- Thread starter Templer Doge
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In SWMH they've chosen to represent the Norse/Danish cultural and linguistic influence by having Norse-owned Angelcynn provinces develop into "Englisc". Then again, it doesn't seem to represent an Anglo-Danish culture per se, since characters in 1066 such as the sons of Leofwine (Morcar and Eadwin) who, I at least, would consider to be Anglo-Saxon proper rather than Anglo-Danish (as apposed to the descendants of Godwine and Gyða as well as Walþeof for example) have been placed in the "Englisc" culture.
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Then is there a true Anglo-Norse culture in the game files? Or does Englisc do the job well enough?
Englisc feels too native rather than Scandinavian.
Englisc feels too native rather than Scandinavian.
Englisc is the Anglo-Norse culture. Englisc is not just there to represent Norse who assimilated into Anglo-Saxon society, but also Anglo-Saxon noblemen primarily from the North of England who was heavily influenced by Scandinavian culture. Englisc is a two-way melting pot, and not just a one-way melting pot, which is why characters that you might think should be Anglo-Saxons are Englisc.
Anglo-Saxon -> Englisc
Norse -> Englisc
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I find the approach interesting, though I think the code would have to be rewritten to represent what you're apparently trying to portray. Currently (at least last time I checked) it's a regular Norse melting pot (akin to Norman and Norse-Gaelic); if you want to portray the "Englisc" culture - in this case the late Anglo-Saxon, slightly Norse influenced culture that dominated England from the time of Canute the Great until the Norman Invasion, then I think it should accommodate for the possibility that there is going to be no Norman invasion (which is almost certainly the case every time you start in the early period), and that "Angelcynn" should develop into "Englisc" not only when controlled by Norse people, but also when controlled by - or perhaps even when the top liege is - an "Englisc"/Anglo-Danish character.
On the other hand, I find my own approach in NHO more appealing still, and, though I've had to use a compound culture to represent it, I think the Anglo-Danish culture deserves to be distinguished more from "Angelcynn" - in reality "Englisc" and "Angelcynn" refers to nearly the same thing (though "Englisc" is mostly used for the language in contemporary literature): That is the Anglo-Saxon people, quite often as opposed to the "Denisc" (Danish).
On the other hand, I find my own approach in NHO more appealing still, and, though I've had to use a compound culture to represent it, I think the Anglo-Danish culture deserves to be distinguished more from "Angelcynn" - in reality "Englisc" and "Angelcynn" refers to nearly the same thing (though "Englisc" is mostly used for the language in contemporary literature): That is the Anglo-Saxon people, quite often as opposed to the "Denisc" (Danish).
Am I correct in thinking that the Norman melting pot functions as it does in vanilla? That is to say, if a Norse ruler holds Breton or Frankish/French land at a certain date, then it triggers a MTTH of converting to Norman culture?
So I guess by the 900s, the population of the British Isles is too large for a fully Scandinavian/Norse culture and language to take over instead of just influencing the already existing Anglo-Saxon people?
That's a disappointing lack of alternate history. Thanks for answering.
That's a disappointing lack of alternate history. Thanks for answering.
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This is how the melting pot functions. Your assumption about it being a Norse-style melting pot is wrong.
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If it were overflowing with Scandinavian/Norse, wouldn't their culture just be Norse? Existing game mechanics do this already.
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I'd love to see melting pots be vastly expanded and diversified. Having a melting pot or two for every cultural combination though would probably be long and tedious work.
I see that it does in fact do pretty much what I said it should (having "Englisc"-owned "Angelcynn" provinces turn "Englisc" just like Norse-owned) if your goal is to represent a later stage of the Anglo-Saxon society without making a clear distinction between Anglo-Danes and Anglo-Saxons. Again, it's an interesting choice even though I'm not fully convinced that it faithfully represents the Norse influence (which was quite significant), rather downplaying it where the old setup (thats used the "Danskr" culture in the Danelaw) overplayed it.
Code:
# The Anglo-Norse Melting Pot
namespace = woody
# Norse influence spreads
character_event = {
id = woody.102
desc = "EVTDESCwoody.102"
picture = GFX_evt_stone_church
only_rulers = yes
trigger = {
year = 900
OR = {
culture_group = north_germanic
culture = anglonorse
}
any_demesne_province = {
region = custom_england
OR = {
culture = saxon
culture_group = north_germanic
}
any_province_holding = {
NOT = { holding_type = nomad }
}
}
}
mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 240
}
option = {
name = "EVTOPTAwoody.102"
random_demesne_province = {
limit = {
region = custom_england
OR = {
culture = saxon
culture_group = north_germanic
}
any_province_holding = {
NOT = { holding_type = nomad }
}
}
culture = anglonorse
}
}
}
#Make my court speak a Norse influenced dialect of Old English
character_event = {
id = woody.103
desc = "EVTDESCwoody.103"
picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
only_rulers = yes
trigger = {
year = 900
OR = {
culture_group = north_germanic
culture = anglonorse
}
any_demesne_province = {
region = custom_england
}
any_courtier = {
OR = {
culture = saxon
culture_group = north_germanic
}
}
}
mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 240
}
option = {
name = "EVTOPTAwoody.103"
random_courtier = {
limit = {
OR = {
culture = saxon
culture_group = north_germanic
}
}
culture = anglonorse
hidden_tooltip = {
character_event = { id = woody.105 days = 3 }
}
}
}
}
#Make my vassal speak English
character_event = {
id = woody.104
desc = "EVTDESCwoody.104"
picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
only_rulers = yes
trigger = {
year = 900
OR = {
culture_group = north_germanic
culture = anglonorse
}
any_demesne_province = {
region = custom_england
}
any_vassal = {
OR = {
culture = saxon
culture_group = north_germanic
}
}
}
mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 240
}
option = {
name = "EVTOPTAwoody.104"
random_vassal = {
limit = {
OR = {
culture = saxon
culture_group = north_germanic
}
}
culture = anglonorse
hidden_tooltip = {
character_event = { id = woody.105 days = 3 }
}
}
}
}
character_event = {
id = woody.105
desc = "EVTDESCwoody.105"
picture = GFX_evt_throne_room
is_triggered_only = yes
option = {
name = "EVTOPTAwoody.105"
culture = anglonorse
}
}What do you mean?
EDIT: I'm just trying to discuss the way you've set it up. No reason to be hostile about it.
EDIT: I'm just trying to discuss the way you've set it up. No reason to be hostile about it.
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I meant that the melting pot was a pretty blunt approach to an Anglo-Danish / Anglo-Norse melting pot as is, just adapted from the English melting pot model. While that is indeed better than having it be a Norse-style melting pot to model the situation as we both agree, surely there is the possibility of a better melting pot here (but then also I can't say I'm particularly motivated to allocate resources toward doing so for now).
Not sure where any interpretation of hostility came from there seeing as I'm just being honest -- it's probably not a perfect, nuanced solution.
I thought you meant that it wasn't hard to see in the code (which it isn't) as a kind of scorn, and the brief answers lead me to believe that you didn't want to discuss the matter. But never mind.
When I made the Anglo-Danish melting pot for my submod, I started by copying from the later English and the Norse-Gaelic melting pots and configured it from there. While my code isn't pretty, my main way of improving it has been to playtest it, that is to say run the game in observe mode and see how it works in practise - almost a hundred times through, and modifying it when I've seen something missing or something that needed to be slower/faster, etc. (The same goes for my Scots melting pot by the way, though it was built from scratch - and is in one big code, so not super easy to figure out).
One thing I've noticed is that you ignore the reverse conversion: When an area is conquered by a Norse kingdom, one of the provinces will often turn Norse culture and Norse faith. In my code there's a reverse conversion that turns this (rather quickly) into the melting pot culture. For example, when parts of Mercia is conquered, Leicestershire may turn Norse, but in a short while, provided at least one of the neighbouring provinces has an Anglo-Saxon holder or the province itself has, the province will turn Anglo-Danish. I've done the same for the Norse-Gaelic and some of the other melting pots, to accommodate for this situation that I noticed while I was playtesting. Some bordering areas (Wales, Lothian, etc.) where the Norse-Gaelic and Anglo-Danish melting pots might conflict, I've made codes to have one take precedence over the other where it made sense.
Norse -> Anglo-Danish code:
When I made the Anglo-Danish melting pot for my submod, I started by copying from the later English and the Norse-Gaelic melting pots and configured it from there. While my code isn't pretty, my main way of improving it has been to playtest it, that is to say run the game in observe mode and see how it works in practise - almost a hundred times through, and modifying it when I've seen something missing or something that needed to be slower/faster, etc. (The same goes for my Scots melting pot by the way, though it was built from scratch - and is in one big code, so not super easy to figure out).
One thing I've noticed is that you ignore the reverse conversion: When an area is conquered by a Norse kingdom, one of the provinces will often turn Norse culture and Norse faith. In my code there's a reverse conversion that turns this (rather quickly) into the melting pot culture. For example, when parts of Mercia is conquered, Leicestershire may turn Norse, but in a short while, provided at least one of the neighbouring provinces has an Anglo-Saxon holder or the province itself has, the province will turn Anglo-Danish. I've done the same for the Norse-Gaelic and some of the other melting pots, to accommodate for this situation that I noticed while I was playtesting. Some bordering areas (Wales, Lothian, etc.) where the Norse-Gaelic and Anglo-Danish melting pots might conflict, I've made codes to have one take precedence over the other where it made sense.
Norse -> Anglo-Danish code:
Code:
# Anglo-Dane melting pot (bordering province reverse)
province_event = {
id = NHO.8
desc = "EVTDESC55000"
picture = GFX_evt_carriage
trigger = {
culture = norse
kingdom = { title = k_england }
OR = {
any_neighbor_province = {
owner = { culture = saxon }
}
owner = { culture = saxon }
owner = { culture = anglonorse }
}
}
mean_time_to_happen = {
months = 200
modifier = {
factor = 0.75
owner = { NOT = { stewardship = 2 } }
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.75
owner = { NOT = { stewardship = 3 } }
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.75
owner = { NOT = { stewardship = 4 } }
}
modifier = {
factor = 0.75
owner = { NOT = { stewardship = 5 } }
}
modifier = {
factor = 1.5
owner = { stewardship = 10 }
}
modifier = {
factor = 1.5
owner = { stewardship = 11}
}
modifier = {
factor = 1.5
owner = { stewardship = 12 }
}
modifier = {
factor = 1.5
owner = { stewardship = 13 }
}
}
option = {
name = "EVTOPTA55000"
culture = anglonorse
}
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