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I was about to mention Sardinian but noticed that they're already in the game! That's pretty dope.

Another thing I would like to add, but it's less important, just a curiosity:
No one ever took into consideration the presence of Rhaeto-Romance culture, the entirety of the alpine arch was populated by them, and they were later Germanized or Italianized but they're still alive into modern Friulian, Romansch and Ladin. I don't know, maybe there are few sources or are not interesting enough for a game but I kinda love those small almost forgotten details.

I'd love to have in something Rhaeto-Romance related too! Though I didn't mention it because I thought it would be too obscure for some.... I'll call it "Rhaetian" for convenience as a catch-all term (dunno what the best name would be).

I did a little bit of research into this actually, as a potential mini-mod idea for CK2 (I did add them to my personal mod I use for CK2 so there's that), and my understanding is that at least in the early and middle timeframe of Crusader Kings, that a decent chunk of Switzerland, Friuli, and a couple other provinces in the Alpine region could be made as Rhaetian. In CK2 terms, I decided they were best in the Latin culture group. Definitely a fascinating smaller culture that could be added in.
 
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Don't forget about how flanders is french and not Flemish.
Other issues:
No albanian No assyrian No circassian The spread of Romanian culture is wrong ( at that time they should be around the mountains not in the middle of Serbia) along with the North-eastern part of Bulgaria( should be Bulgar instead of Bulgarian)
Also dont know much about this one but shouldn't bosniak culture appear much later?
[...]
[...]
Another point: Dalmatian should be present, in Istria and coastal Dalmatia. It's kinda important, I mean, the central-southern Italian language group is called "Italo-Dalmatian" because this language/culture existed too.

Another thing I would like to add, but it's less important, just a curiosity:
No one ever took into consideration the presence of Rhaeto-Romance culture, the entirety of the alpine arch was populated by them, and they were later Germanized or Italianized but they're still alive into modern Friulian, Romansch and Ladin. I don't know, maybe there are few sources or are not interesting enough for a game but I kinda love those small almost forgotten details.

Also agree into the splitting of the Big Blue Blob, cutting off Arpitan from French into what's more of less the kingdom of Burgundy.
I just noticed that there's no Basques in Aquitaine.

Sorry to bother you @Vias , but could you add the Culture map of 1066, for comparison? I know I've seen it somewhere
Ok, adding them to OP post. Thanks! (I'll see if I find the other culture map)

Off the top of my head, Circassian culture would be nice in the Caucasus region.
I also think Omani should be in to represent Eastern Arabia. A South Semetic/South Arabian/Soqotri culture would be nice too, though may be too small for the game's scope.
Also, the division between Irish and Gaelic as seen in one screenshot is a little weird.

I can understand having Cisalpine but do agree a better name is needed. Lombard I suppose would have connotations of being associated with the Germanic Lombards so it'd be kind of weird.

Maybe it would be better to split Cisalpine into several cultures? For example Ligurian for the eastern side, Lombard in the central, and Venetian in the west? (And then rename the current Italian to Tuscan or something) Though I presume that might not be adequate for some.

Adding to the OP post, for the Cisalpine culture, see below.

The Romans did not found Mediolanum, there was already a city build by the Cisalpine Gauls on that location, the Romans just took control of it and renamed it.

It's not quite like this but let's not go off-topic. By the way, what I meant was that they founded a municipium in the site. They did it a lot of times, they "founded" a municipium over an already existent city afaik. :)

For the Cisalpine culture, see below.

Cisalpine isn't artificial. It has proper linguistic basis:

Ok, regarding the Cisalpine Culture I made a bit of confusion. I just checked an italian Linguistics book just to be sure ("Le lingue e il linguaggio", by G. Graffi and S. Scalise) and it seems that while in Italian we call Ligurian, Piedmontese, Lombard and so on just "Lingue Gallo-Italiche" (Gallo-Italian Languages), in english there is the definition "Cisalpine" too. I was confused by this, and I was not the only one I thing (I spotted another Italian asking about Cisalpine culture in another thread) so now it makes sense. Yep, I'm ok with Cisalpine culture, but I think they should add Venetian too, it's a different language and a different sub-culture.

EDIT: some minor corrections.
EDIT2:
Latgalian should not be the culture of the whole of Latvia at either start date. They were only one eastern tribe that became dominant well after the region was conquered and devastated in the 1200s.
If for the sake of simplicity you want to keep the whole of Latvia one culture then simply rename it "Latvian" otherwise, Curonian and Semigallian should also be introduced for historical accuracy.
Furthermore, the northern Curonian coast was inhabited by Livonians not Balts in both start dates.
Having a small Christian Romanized Berber culture in North Africa could be fun for 867, they probably wouldn't do anything on their own, but if the player wanted to have fun with it they could.
Sorry guys, forgot to answer properly, I'll add to OP post, thanks!
 
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- Cisalpine culture in Northern Italy;

I assume Cisalpine is Northern Italian (Genovese, Venetian, Lombard), basically. As @pengoyo said, Lombard name was already taken, and having "Northern" and "Regular" Italian looks weird.

- French, Occitan and Ango-Saxon culture blog opposed to more granular cultures elsewhere;

I'm not sure of how French and Occitan could be split. Basically they're "langue d'oïl" vs "langue d'oc" right now.

The same about Anglosaxon. I would rather make an Anglo-Norse or Northern English melting pot for Anglo-Saxon and Norse.

- Visigothic megablob and no Hispano-Roman culture in Iberia;

Visigothic culture basically equals Hispano-roman or Hispano-visigothic in the game, and it's already a culture which ends up splitting and disappearing. We even have new cultures like Aragonese or Astur-Leonese, as some of the new pictures and videos show.

Rus culture named improperly (Russian);

Maybe naming it "Rus" could be more appropiate, yes. Also, I want to believe that they dumped early Eastern Slavic cultures (Volhynian, Severian, etc) in favour of a late game split (Novgorodian, Ruthenian, Muscovite, etc), considering 867 is probably the earliest start date we'll see. It could work in a similar way as Visigothic or Norse split: new cultures for each new De Jure kingdoms, if they're not unified within a strong empire.

- No Slovenian/Carinthian culture in Istria;
- No Dalmatian culture in Dalmatia;

Completely agree here. I can't understand why didn't they included them.

No Romanic African culturein Africa.

Could be an interesting, although geographically "small" culture. Also, finding namelists for them could be difficult.


Also, remember this is the 867 culture map. It would be very nice to find the same map for 1066 and compare the cultures. I really hope they included some new, like Neapolitan/Sicilian/Southern Italian, or Greek sub-cultures (Pontic? Cappadocian?).
 
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the bedouin culture in the whole of Arabian peninsula/Middle east doesn't make sense, maybe in the desert areas but as "dark-mysterio" suggested in his topic,
the Qahtanite could represent the "southern Arabian" and the Adnanites the "Northern Arabian"

glad to see:
No Omani Culture in Arabia (could add South Semetic/South Arabian/Soqotri culture too)
 
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weren't they in ck2? :oops:
They were added in 3.0. None of the new cultures in 3.0 (Crimean Gothic, Dalmatian, Carantanian, Coptic) made it to CK3 probably because CK2/3 developments had split by then.
 
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cultures.png

Here's some cultural changes I would do. Veps and Saami get territory labeled as Finnish and Mari and Chuvash (should be Burtas) get territory labeled as Bolghar. Penza, while under Bolghar administration, was still inhabited by Burtas. Yoshkar-Ola and it's vicinity was never Turkic or even under direct Bolghar administration. Aunus region was still Veps and the Karelian tribe inhabited north and west of Ladoga, and Saami held Viena and Kainuu.
 
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Don't forget about how flanders is french and not Flemish.
It should be Dutch. 'Flemish' as a seperate culture in the High Middle Ages, especially one that includes Brabant of all places, makes no sense at all. It's bizarre retro-history.

Cleves should also be Dutch in culture, for that matter. German only became the main language of the population centuries after 1453.
 
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It should be Dutch. 'Flemish' as a seperate culture in the High Middle Ages, especially one that includes Brabant of all places, makes no sense at all. It's bizarre retro-history.

Cleves should also be Dutch in culture, for that matter. German only became the main language of the population centuries after 1453.
In regards to the Netherlands, is Gelre speaking a Saxon dialect a new development or was this area actually closer to lower Saxony than Holland?

Verbreitungsgebiet_der_heutigen_niederdeutschen_Mundarten.png

edit: I found this map showing the Old Dutch area.
OldDutcharea.png

Maybe the northeast of Modern Netherlands should be Saxon?
 
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I'm definitely in agreement with the confusion over Cisalpine. In another place of discussion, I pointed out that Venice is, indeed, a fairly distinct population, and if anything could be considered more "italo-byzantine" in common with the far south, more than they could as part of a continuum of the north. Cisalpine culture itself is contentious because some of the lands covered might be considered quintessentially Medieval Italian, definitive of the political systems (commune, republic), identity, art, and political stances broadly (anti-imperial) that we tend to associate with Italy in this time period. However, many areas in northern Italy were particularly influenced by Occitan language, art, culture broadly, in ways that the Tuscans and those further south (as well as the Venetians and Dalmatians) simply were not, and this creep could very much be considered a valid cultural distinction. So, I would personally rate Cisalpine to be a contentious but justifiable group based more or less entirely around how much give or take one is willing to use, where they draw lines in distinction of identity, and a degree of personal preference. The Cisalpine populations might have much more in common with Tuscans than Occitans, but a legitimate gap did form between them in a lot of modes of cultural expression as well.

I still stand by Venetians not being included, though. They should either be plain Italian, or a new "Italo-Byzantine" culture shared with certain places elsewhere in Italy and particularly in the South. Dalmatian also needs to come back, yes yes. I also echo the idea for Rhaeto-Romance, probably shortened as "Rhaetian", being introduced. I'm just glad that they're not using 16th-17th century Italian states and modern Italian regional cultures to determine medieval Italian cultural division, as what we might consider Italian culture should perhaps more properly be considered to balkanize over time, not to unite.

On another note, the Assyrians being subsumed under the Kurds is bad, if not downright offensive to the Assyrian people. There is a significant amount of bad blood both historically and presently between Assyrians and Kurds, it's just entirely inappropriate.

I think the inclusion of a Chuvash culture is interesting but potentially a massive anachronism. There is no universal consensus on the position of the Chuvash people linguistically, but they are commonly held to be direct descendants of the Volga Bulghars, and on a cultural level were almost certainly not distinct in the middle ages even if they are to be considered a separate linguistic grouping by some today. In this region, it is also neat to see the Uralic cultures properly divided along the lines identified in THE OLD TEXTS but I'm not certain of the Biarmian culture. What is it meant to represent? One of the Samoyedic peoples? A Finnic group? Are they really to be considered a distinct group not identifiable as any of their neighboring populations, on the map or otherwise? To cap off the region, I will miss the Goths quite a bit, and hope the Alans there are going to be able to be nomads when that gets reintroduced.

In the Mideast: Should Tajik culture be that big? To my understanding, it's similar to a sort of Persified Sogdian population, so maybe the Khwarezmian culture should be a bit bigger and push the Tajiks closer to traditionally Sogdian lands? Or, maybe, have Tajik be a melting pot for Sogdians under foreign rule, especially under another Iranian culture, or maybe under Muslims? Would also be nice to see an "Aramean" culture as a western counterpart to Assyrian, since there were (and still are!) people who identif(ied/y) as Arameans throughout the Levant, particularly in Syria, more contentiously in Lebanon and the Holy Land under all number of names. Aramean culture could absorb peoples like the Maronites to consolidate itself a bit better, and make its grounding in the whole western Levant more grounded broadly. The region still was largely Aramaic-speaking and even with a large Christian population (potential majority?) until the Crusades or so. The Islamicization and Arabization of the Levant is traditionally associated with the 12th-13th century, and especially around the time of Saladin. Levantine culture could be considered a melting pot of any given Arabic culture (Bedouin, Egyptian, Levantine, maybe even Arab-Berber if that's a thing) and Aramean culture. Getting some South Arabian cultures would be nice, maybe separate "South Arabian" and "Himyarite" cultures, since Himyarite nobles lasted in Yemen well after the rise of Islam and were, linguistically and probably in identification, distinct from the common South Arabian peoples. Whether to split remnant Old South Arabian and the sibling branch of New South Arabian is contentious and I think the cultures might be too small and ultimately too similar to justify doing it, so the real question is which language to pull the names from.

There are also areas in the Levant that, at the 9th or 11th century, would potentially by majority Jewish or Samaritan. The demographic history of this area is difficult to say the least between the Muslim conquest and the rise of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but there are a few hotspots, and Jewish presence in the land was relatively strong before the First Crusade. This is the period of the Gaonate, of the Masoretes, of schools and pilgrims and sizable settlement of Rabbinic Jews, Karaites, and Samaritans in the land. Although a shadow of their former selves, the communities Four Holy Cities are all candidates - Safed, which largely remains off the record for Muslim history between the 8th and 11th centuries, but which is attested in Jewish literature and records from the period, might be a decent contender. Tiberias is debatable, but possible - at the start of this period it had more than thirty synagogues, which were still known or identifiable in the 12th century when their destruction was recorded by an 8th century earthquake. This implies, at the very least, that knowledge of the synagogues was not lost, the Jewish community there was not simply forgotten or dissipated in that time. Significant Jewish communities are also attested along Gaza and general Philistia, as well as in Ramla-Jaffa, in Acre and Haifa (the latter of which is said to have Jews as its primary defenders during the crusades, implying Muslims were essentially a garrison rather than a majority), and to some degree Jerusalem. The exact population of Jerusalem, like the rest, is pretty hard to find, but I can find one estimate with an actual number given (10,000) for the era, and it is said that 6,000 Jews were slain and more captured during the siege of 1099. This points to a possible Jewish slim majority or plurality in Jerusalem prior to 1099. I have no doubt that more research needs to be conducted in these cases and none of it is helpful without a more detailed map of the area in CK3, but my point stands that, for 867 especially but also 1066, there is real potential for places with majority Israelite culture, and Judaic religions (Rabbinic, Samaritan, Karaite) to match.

For Britain, I find the separation of Cornish and Breton to be interesting. In a lot of ways, this was more of a geographical than a true cultural and linguistic separation during this era. However, for gameplay purposes, it makes a lot of sense - especially with carried-over CK3 equivalent of cultural retinues. The Bretons would be much more likely to engage in French military practices than the Cornish would be, but I hope they can have some sort of affinity for one another at least. I applaud the addition of Cumbric culture and the survival of Pictish into later history, but I can't help but notice "Gaelic" culture distinct from "Irish". Does this perhaps hint at a sort of Old Gaelic proto-culture that will dynamically evolve into Irish and Scottish, and maybe more (Manx? Irish colonies in Wales?) over time? That'd sure be interesting!

For Central Europe, I'm not on a crusade against larger cultures, wanting to break them just for the hell of it. I actually wonder if distinguishing Swabian and Bavarian culture in 867 might not be anachronistic? I'd think it should be united with Bavarian as "Suebi" or "Alemannic", in accordance with the tribes that governed this area, the former lending its name to Swabia, and the latter being the preferred modern term for this area and its culture and people. Franconian is nice, but given its area and what it likely represents, this could probably just be named "German" to no problems. I am surprised Dutch has no presence at all, nor does Frankish - its direct ancestor, and distinct from Franconian.

Anyway I think that just about sums up everything I want to say for now
 
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In regards to the Netherlands, is Gelre speaking a Saxon dialect a new development or was this area actually closer to lower Saxony than Holland?

View attachment 578892
edit: I found this map showing the Old Dutch area.
View attachment 578893
Maybe the northeast of Modern Netherlands should be Saxon?

I think perhaps having some of the area along the coast as Frisian, but then most of Flanders, Brabant, Julich, Gelre, and that new duchy between Gelre and Frisia would probably work to be something along the lines of Frankish/Old Dutch, which could in turn evolve into Dutch/Flemish as a melting pot or something. You could probably just get away with it as just Dutch as well though, to save the need to add extra cultures/melting pots. As for Saxon, I think it could probably fit for that new duchy, though I'm not too sure, leaving it as the Dutch (or Frisian) would work fine as well.

On this note though, I really hope that Frisian does not turn into Dutch via a melting pot, as that would be terribly inaccurate.

Counties as well as De Jure Duchies, Kingdoms and Empires in 1066. Courtesy of Gamestar (DE).
View attachment 577361
 
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Is Visigothic not Ibero-Roman like it was in CK2? It could hardly be 5th century Visigothic.
 
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I think the inclusion of a Chuvash culture is interesting but potentially a massive anachronism. There is no universal consensus on the position of the Chuvash people linguistically, but they are commonly held to be direct descendants of the Volga Bulghars, and on a cultural level were almost certainly not distinct in the middle ages even if they are to be considered a separate linguistic grouping by some today. In this region, it is also neat to see the Uralic cultures properly divided along the lines identified in THE OLD TEXTS but I'm not certain of the Biarmian culture. What is it meant to represent? One of the Samoyedic peoples? A Finnic group? Are they really to be considered a distinct group not identifiable as any of their neighboring populations, on the map or otherwise? To cap off the region, I will miss the Goths quite a bit, and hope the Alans there are going to be able to be nomads when that gets reintroduced.
Chuvash is not supposed to represent actual Chuvash, but the Burtas, most likely a Scythian/Sarmatian group. Chuvashia itself was mostly inhabited by the Mari but also the Sabir, who technically originated from a distinct group of the Bolghars. However I think the Sabirs should be Bolghar considering that by the 9th century the state had been formed.
Bjarmians are a mystery, but they're associated with the Zavolochkaya Chud in Russian records. There is a layer of Saami toponymes in the area, but the language is thought to have been Finnic.
 
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It hurts that I don’t see any Coptic culture. They were in during Ck2 3.0 but didn’t make the cut this time. I guess it isn’t that big a deal since their probably won’t be any playable characters of the Coptic faith, much less culture but it would still be nice for historical accuracy since areas where the Coptic religion survived (Which was a lot of places considering it was the majority religion up until sometime during the Mamelukes, so 1250-1500 around. And the added plus info Coptic is still the majority, or close to the majority in two governates) had drastically different cultural practices, not to mention language. Coptic the language lasted until the 1600s spoken colloquially between Coptic individuals, meanwhile those who embraced Islam spoke Arabic as their first language in order to fulfill the requirements of Islam by reading the Quran.

Again, purely gameplay wise it wouldn’t make much of a difference but for accuracy as the sole reason I don’t see why it shouldn’t be in there, especially since it was already in Ck2. Plus it might be a good source of rebellion for Muslim blobs, having a culture (Egyptian) that already embraces a relatively new culture to the region after only 200 years of rule doesn’t make much sense, and again Coptic was still the preferred language and religion and they certainly had very little in common with the Bedouin overlords who were granted land. Honestly in the 867 start date I would argue Egyptian as a culture doesn’t exist yet, it was created as Islam was embraced and Bedouin practices fused with native practices while Arabic became the primary language, so in other words during the Fatimid era at the earliest in the 1066 start date, and even then only in the Capital of Fustat, later called Cairo.
 
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At a minimum I'd add arpitan and Gascon to France, possibly Picard, Lorrain and Franco Provencal too. France was a mess in this era, it shouldn't be a giant blob IMHO.
For Italy, Venetian, Sardinian (was sort of like Basqye, its own little thing), Lombard in the north, Tuscan in the center (including Corsica since the island was heavily impacted by the region) then maybe Laziale/Umbrian or something for Rome? The Pentapolis/Papal states should probably be a different culture than Lombardy and maybe Tuscany (sort of iffy on that), they were like Venetian in that they were much more influenced by "Roman"/Greek styles and relatively less influenced by the Lombards and Franks in the Po.
 
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My take:
  • My first issue is with virtually all of Iberia being Visigothic. We know that the Germanic tribes were not great enough in number to completely supplant Romance cultures, and they often only made up the ruling class. Ibero-Romance would make more sense here. Having the entirety of the former Visigothic Kingdom as Visigothic makes about as much sense as having all of Burgundy as Burgundian. Ibero-Romance could then develop into Castilian, Leonese (and/or Asturian), Galician, Aragonese, Catalan, and Andalusian depending on rulers' cultures (ex. Arabic/Berber->Andalusian, Asture->Leonese/Asturian) or the realm (ex. Galician will pop up in Galicia).
  • Speaking of Burgundy, the absence of Arpitan is certainly puzzling to me.
  • Moving on to the British Isles, I think it would be more reasonable to split Anglo-Saxon into Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, and having them merge into one Anglo-Saxon (Angelcynn) identity after unification. Cornish would not have been a majority in Devon by 867, Wessex had gained control since. I believe "Gaelic" is supposed to represent Scottish Gaelic, and assuming that's true I'm not sure about having them make up the majority of Scotland/Pictland in 867. Only during the reign of _ was the realm referred to as Alba, and even then the scholarly consensus is that proper Gaelicization began with Constantine II. It would still take until the 11th century for Pictish to fully fall out of use.
  • Another choice I always found odd was having Frisian in most of the Netherlands whereas Old Frisian was roughly restricted to the former Frisian Kingdom in Frisia and Holland while the rest of the modern Netherlands fell mostly under "Franconian" (Salian Franks) or Saxon. It is the Salian Frankish language that would evolve into Old Low Franconian (AKA Old Dutch) and later Dutch, whereas Ripuarian Frankish would evolve into Central Franconian and Rhenish Franconian (Within Franconia and Lotharingia).
  • Lastly, Italy being split into Cisplatine (Gallo-Romance) in the north, Lombard/Greek in the south, and Italian in the middle isn't wholly inaccurate but it may be better to balkanize Italian languages in a similar fashion to the German ones (ex. Piedmontese, Ligurian, Sardinian).
  • Hoping they finally fix Alan culture to the actual Kingdom of Alania (which is tribal for some reason).
EDIT: Actually, splitting Iberia into Astures and Ibero-Romance descendants; Galician, Asturian/Leonese, Castilan, Aragonese, Catalan, and Mozarabic (precursor to Andalusian), (and of course Basques, but they're already there) is probably the best option.
 
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Could be an interesting, although geographically "small" culture.
I confer with this sentiment, though African Romance remained important through the 12th century, when the Normans received aid from the remaining Christian population in their conquest of Africa (the province), so I believe it should be present through most of the province (until after the Arab reconquest of Ifriqiya that is).

Seeing as this is being downvoted for presumably the lack of a source; https://www.academia.edu/243360/Bridging_Europe_and_Africa_Norman_Sicilys_Other_Kingdom
 
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