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pih-ROH-ghee

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View attachment 578888
Here's some cultural changes I would do. Veps and Saami get territory labeled as Finnish and Mari and Chuvash (should be Burtas) get territory labeled as Bolghar. Penza, while under Bolghar administration, was still inhabited by Burtas. Yoshkar-Ola and it's vicinity was never Turkic or even under direct Bolghar administration. Aunus region was still Veps and the Karelian tribe inhabited north and west of Ladoga, and Saami held Viena and Kainuu.
Sorry for the revival of this discussion, and I might have misunderstood you. Do you mean to "convert" all the counties of Lapland (both Finnish, Swedish and Norwegian Lapland) from Sami to Finnish culture? Or did I misunderstand? If I didn't misunderstand, may I ask why? Linguistically, even if Sami and Finnish at one point were the same language, it's probably way before the start date of CK2. Today Sami languages have their own branch on the finno-ugric language tree and the language-split probably happened somewhere around 1000 BC.
 
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Slime99

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Sorry for the revival of this discussion, and I might have misunderstood you. Do you mean to "convert" all the counties of Lapland (both Finnish, Swedish and Norwegian Lapland) from Sami to Finnish culture? Or did I misunderstand? If I didn't misunderstand, may I ask why? Linguistically, even if Sami and Finnish at one point were the same language, it's probably way before the start date of CK2. Today Sami languages have their own branch on the finno-ugric language tree and the language-split probably happened somewhere around 1000 BC.
Those territories, Kainuu and Viena, are represented as Finnish in game at the moment, they should be Saami. That's what I meant.
 
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Byzantium2000

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View attachment 581197
I think this map could be used to construct 1066 Caucasus. The lands confined in the Kura and Aras rivers are a little more ambiguous and changing so I'm not quite sure on that one, but North Caucasus should be okay. Khundzia is another name for Sarir.
I’ve Seen that map a 100 times and ngl the lack of Byzantine Tao still gives me ocd with that weird ahistorical edge in their borders.

I agree though, I also kinda wish Georgia wasn’t Dejure Byyzie so it doesn’t get wiped by Greek.
 

Slime99

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I’ve Seen that map a 100 times and ngl the lack of Byzantine Tao still gives me ocd with that weird ahistorical edge in their borders.

I agree though, I also kinda wish Georgia wasn’t Dejure Byyzie so it doesn’t get wiped by Greek.
Yeah, the Caucasus region should be it's own empire. If more detail was given to north Caucasus you could fit 3 kingdoms in the region for Circassians, Alans and Nakh-Dagestanis. Maybe Shirvan could be it's own kingdom too?
 
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Ok guys, updated OP post!

Could you add the Caucasian Avars, which were also mentioned in my initial posts on Circassians? In any case, thank you for keeping the original post up-to-date! Hopefully the developers will take note and correct the most egregious issues before launch, or consider integrating new cultures in later updates or DLC.

Yeah, the Caucasus region should be it's own empire. If more detail was given to north Caucasus you could fit 3 kingdoms in the region for Circassians, Alans and Nakh-Dagestanis. Maybe Shirvan could be it's own kingdom too?

There's a lot going on in the region geopolitically that certainly justifies splitting the existing provinces into two, three, perhaps even four in the case of "Cabardinia".

I feel the North Caucasus (at the very least) should also receive its own areal cultural grouping as well. In the past I'd proposed a broader "Caucasian" group that included Georgian and Armenian in CK2, which was met with mixed reception, but their inclusion in the Greek Byzantine "Eastern Christian" superblob in that game will never sit right with me.

ETA: Found something else that's bugging me. "Uriankhai" in the Siberian Far East covers a region occupied by the Tuva, both historically and in the present-day. Why not simply use "Tuva" or "Tuvan" rather than a catch-all Mongolic exonym?
 
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I don't know if this meets the topic of this thread, but I made a proposal to have cultures grouped in two different way simultaneous (i.e. culture are grouped based on regional groups and culture families). I think having cultures grouped in both of these ways allows for more nuanced representation of cultures, and for culture to dynamically change, because while culture families are static, members of a regional culture groups can change over time. If you want to take a look, I've linked to my proposal here.

Edit: Word
 
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Divirix

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I talk about different Baltic tribes in my thread.

One thing worth mentioning is:

"Samogitia only became a separate thing after Mindaugas gave that area away to the Teutonic Knights (13th century) and was later used by Vytautas as a bargaining chip vs the same Knights on several occasions. It was always part of what was Lithuania prior to that"

and there should be a Baltic culture county where Eastern Galindians were.
 
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The Avar culture spread in Transilvania in the 867 start date is wrong, historically the Avars didn't have such a strong cultural presence and did not populate the mountainous and dense forest regions the inside the Carpathians (should be Vlach instead) and in fact the Avars first settled along the Maris and Tisa rivers as shown by the strong archeological evidence found in those areas.

View attachment 581141View attachment 581147
1) Map showing the passage the Avars took through Transilvania and their center of power along the Maris and Tisa rivers.
2) Map showing the spread of Avar artefacts in the Pannonian basin, as you can see most artefacts uncovered in Transilvania are around the Crișana region ((Maris and Tisa rivers) and while some remains were found in Banat, and Intracarpathia area too, they are too few compared to the other areas to suggest a strong Avar presence there and mostly around the ruins of the old romans castrums as the Avar remains found in Apahida and Turda sugest. (Note the white areas in Intracarpathia where no Avar remains were found).
Avar archeological remains are easy to discern from other due to their specific inventary of items, as they were often burried with their horse and bow along with other characteristic cultural elements.
Slavs first came to the Carpathian Basin along with the Avars and in Transilvania their settlements can be found all over (yellow areas included) but more in Banat, Marmaros and Intracarpathian region (Areas marked red on the second map). While the Avars (the rulling/dominating class) focused on ocuppying the old Roman castrums ( easily defensible positions) and the areas with important resources (as are the salt mines in Torda) the Slavs ocuppyied the countrysides where they came into contact with the romance speaking populations (known as the Bratei-Morești culture by historians with settlements and remains found in Alba, Sibiu, Mureș, Cluj, Biharea counties and others). The populations of this culture, retains in the ceramic style aspects from the roman ceramics, aswell as the technology of making pottery using the the wheel rather than handworked (as the slavs had). Later on wheel pottery will become generalised again as the slavs will came into contact with the romance population.
Between the VIII - X centuries the slavs will become assimilated with them resulting in the formation of the Vlachs people, ethnogenesis which by the 867 start date when the Bulgarian Empire is about to fall, is mostly finished.
In game, Vlachs have a strong presence in the Banat, Severin and Oltenia regions, whitch is corect since they were regions that were held the longest by the Roman Empire but their attested presence in Intracarpathia is wholly neglected, as shown in my posts Avar should not be there and instead Vlachs culture should ocupy the provinces closests to the Carpathian mountains.
View attachment 581156View attachment 581171
Here, in the most horrible paint skills you have ever seen, you can see with red dots the teritories Vlachs ocuppy curently in CK3 , and with orange the suggested territories they should ocuppy. Avar culture should be where Cluj, Oradea, Seghedin, Debretin is on the map that is plains, major rivers areas.

Sources : Maps 1/2 - Kevin Alexander - The Avars in Pannonia and Transylvania
Maps 2/4 - poor photoshop skills
Archeological evidence for the Avars/Slavs/Romance populations - History of Transilvania Vol I - Ioan Aurel Pop, Thomas Nagler, Andras Magyari - ed III 2016
- The Dacian Stones Speak - Paul Lachlan McKendrick
- English wikipedia
- Magyar expansion in Transilvania - Alexandru Madgearu - 2019
View attachment 581197
I think this map could be used to construct 1066 Caucasus. The lands confined in the Kura and Aras rivers are a little more ambiguous and changing so I'm not quite sure on that one, but North Caucasus should be okay. Khundzia is another name for Sarir.
I don't know if this meets the topic of this thread, but I made a proposal to have cultures grouped in two different way simultaneous (i.e. culture are grouped based on regional groups and culture families). I think having cultures grouped in both of these ways allows for more nuanced representation of cultures, and for culture to dynamically change, because while culture families are static, members of a regional culture groups can change over time. If you want to take a look, I've linked to my proposal here.

Edit: Word
I talk about different Baltic tribes in my thread.

One thing worth mentioning is:

"Samogitia only became a separate thing after Mindaugas gave that area away to the Teutonic Knights (13th century) and was later used by Vytautas as a bargaining chip vs the same Knights on several occasions. It was always part of what was Lithuania prior to that"

and there should be a Baltic culture county where Eastern Galindians were.
Ok guys, thank you! Adding to post OP :)

Could you add the Caucasian Avars, which were also mentioned in my initial posts on Circassians? In any case, thank you for keeping the original post up-to-date! Hopefully the developers will take note and correct the most egregious issues before launch, or consider integrating new cultures in later updates or DLC.



There's a lot going on in the region geopolitically that certainly justifies splitting the existing provinces into two, three, perhaps even four in the case of "Cabardinia".

I feel the North Caucasus (at the very least) should also receive its own areal cultural grouping as well. In the past I'd proposed a broader "Caucasian" group that included Georgian and Armenian in CK2, which was met with mixed reception, but their inclusion in the Greek Byzantine "Eastern Christian" superblob in that game will never sit right with me.

ETA: Found something else that's bugging me. "Uriankhai" in the Siberian Far East covers a region occupied by the Tuva, both historically and in the present-day. Why not simply use "Tuva" or "Tuvan" rather than a catch-all Mongolic exonym?
You are welcome! I hope this thread will actually be of help to devs so that they can address (and hopefully fix) all the inaccurancies with cultures in the game. The scope of CK3 is really, really big after all, it must be difficult to keep track of everything! I hope they are reading it too :p
 
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There should also make an event that if k-hungary exists and ruler culture is magyar you get an event that asks you if you want to colonise saxons in transilvania. If yes then a historically apropiate region changes culture to saxon and gets a development boost as to portray the economic development transilvania went through due to the german colonists.

This should be implemented for areas like Silesia, Brandenburg, pomerania and mecklenburg too
 
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Myrkull

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It's not a major thing, but I don't understand why Polabian culture is present in southern territory of Pomeranians. It was opposite, in XII century Pomerania expanded into Lutici lands and took Demmin and Wolgast.
 
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I just want to add that "Occitan" is a relatively recent word, the appropriate ethnonym that was used during the middle ages by both catalans and occitans was "lemosin". As in many Romance languages, it was named after the most prominent region speaking that language ; in this case, Lemosin (modern Limousin).
Occitan refers to Lemosin spoken in France (but not in Catalunya), and often it even refers to occitan as a dialect different from catalan.

Btw the northern limits of that language and culture are hard to define, because there are no clear borders (instead there was a dialect continuum. Which doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a distinct Lemosin culture, but there would probably be people saying that it's the wrong place. But they will probably not be completely right, as it is very hard to have a definitive answer to that question. In reality, the extent of the Lemosin culture northwards depended a lot of the contemporary glory and fame of rulers. It would be tempting to use the borders from the golden age of the "langue d'oc", (11th - 13th centuries), but I'm not certain it would be a good idea.

First off, I'm all for using the terms they (the people in the Middle Ages) used, for immersion.

The problem: it's a mess. We now, scientifically, have linked all the different branches of Occitan together, and still can't agree on which transition dialects are French and which are Occitan (the very task is, of course, flawed, language doesn't care about labels), or whether Catalan belongs in it or not (for political reasons, mostly). Medieval people didn't have the same ideas we have about ethnicity, nationality or even language.

What names did they give to what we know today as Occitan? In the area, it would depend on where you are. Someone from Aquitaine would call it Aquitan, someone from Gascony, Gascon, someone from Auvernge, Auvergnat, someone from Limoges, Lemosin, someone from Provence, Provençal... that's when they're not calling it "nostra lingua" or "our Romance tongue". But, ouside, the two terms people used the most were Lemosin and Provençal.

Which of the two is the right one? Provençal gained notoriety in the XIXth Century with Mistral's rekindling of Occitan, but Lemosin gained fame in the XVIth for literary reasons, and was again reintroduced in the XIXth. None won the bout, and Occitan, a fairly obscure and archaic term (it apparently comes from the XIIIth Century, but I haven't seen the documents to prove it), was considered inclusive enough to be the encompassing term.

And we're back at the beginning. Either we split Occitan into two cultures that function as one, or we give them the possibly anachronistic name Occitan and save ourselves a headache.

+++

As for the Visigoths, I'd just call them Goths. They called themselves Goths, the Franks called them Goths, and for some reason, between the 7th and 10th Centuries, there's a game of ball where one side of the Pyrinees calls the other Hispani and the other Gothi, but it changes every 50-100 years. It's weird. It's probably due to many Septimanian lords being of Gothic descent, and also the Franks in the area identifying the lands around the Pyrinees as the last lands held by these Goths. Then, depending on political or cultural situations, ones would be known as Hispani (not always south of the Pyrinees) and ones as Gothi (sometimes Catalans would call the Occitans "gots", and sometimes they themselves claimed Gothic legacy (like some counts of Barcelona claiming to be Marchiones Gothiae or Duces Gothici.

The area around the Pyrinees could have been known as Gothia, had things been different (yes, there are some theories linking Catalonia to Gotholania, but... it's not solid).
 
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We now, scientifically, have linked all the different branches of Occitan together, and still can't agree on which transition dialects are French and which are Occitan (the very task is, of course, flawed, language doesn't care about labels)
I thought it's a clear-cut oïl versus oc distinction? Do the transition dialects use both or something?
 
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oh, the above post reminded me, @Vias I made a thread where I went over the whole the usage of the term Visigothic https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...isigothic-in-the-erliest-start-dates.1392405/ while the thread covers mostly chronicle's as sources it goes over the issues with terminology and the like, it's main point is that Visigothic is a valid term, but far from perfect, could yuo link it in the OP? while a tad biased in it's approach it's even handed enough to be informative
 
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Cèsar de Quart

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I thought it's a clear-cut oïl versus oc distinction? Do the transition dialects use both or something?

It's not, the distinction between oc or oïl is superficial. French and Occitan differ in many other ways, like phonetics, difference in verb case ending, differences in vocabulary, etc. Catalan, for instance, is very close to Occitan, closer to it than to Spanish (although Aragonese is the transition language that cushions between the two, and Castillian has heavy Basque influence in its pronunciation, while Aragonese or Catalan do not), but it doesn't use Oc.

And yes, some dialects use both. Sometimes all.

Medieval Catalan, for example: Hoc was used often with straight up, definite "no". It was also a more formal word than the more common . But it also used oïl, in the form oi, which is, funnly, used in a similar way French uses si.

So, which is it?

oh, the above post reminded me, @Vias I made a thread where I went over the whole the usage of the term Visigothic https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...isigothic-in-the-erliest-start-dates.1392405/ while the thread covers mostly chronicle's as sources it goes over the issues with terminology and the like, it's main point is that Visigothic is a valid term, but far from perfect, could yuo link it in the OP? while a tad biased in it's approach it's even handed enough to be informative

Again, I think Gothic is fine.
 
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AliasRY

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1. Assamese should ideally be named something else. The name Assam derives from the Ahom/Tai-Ahom people who settled in modern day Assam in 1228. Their kingdom was called the Ahom Kingdom (1228–1826), but they didn't localise until well into EU4's timeline.

Instead, perhaps it should be Kamrupi after the kingdom that existed during Classical India? The language they are though to have spoken is called Kamrupi Prakrit by scholars.

The Ahom are a sub-group of the Tai, who today can be found across South China and South-East Asia. Thailand being the eponymous(?) example. I don't think the Tai exist on the CK3 map, since their "primary" counties would be to the east of where the map ends.

2. I am gonna chime in and support the idea that their should be a lot more tribal counties in India. And that the culture groupings are far too monolithic considering how diverse India is even in the modern day.
 
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Vias

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There should also make an event that if k-hungary exists and ruler culture is magyar you get an event that asks you if you want to colonise saxons in transilvania. If yes then a historically apropiate region changes culture to saxon and gets a development boost as to portray the economic development transilvania went through due to the german colonists.
This should be implemented for areas like Silesia, Brandenburg, pomerania and mecklenburg too
It's not a major thing, but I don't understand why Polabian culture is present in southern territory of Pomeranians. It was opposite, in XII century Pomerania expanded into Lutici lands and took Demmin and Wolgast.
1. Assamese should ideally be named something else. The name Assam derives from the Ahom/Tai-Ahom people who settled in modern day Assam in 1228. Their kingdom was called the Ahom Kingdom (1228–1826), but they didn't localise until well into EU4's timeline.

Instead, perhaps it should be Kamrupi after the kingdom that existed during Classical India? The language they are though to have spoken is called Kamrupi Prakrit by scholars.

The Ahom are a sub-group of the Tai, who today can be found across South China and South-East Asia. Thailand being the eponymous(?) example. I don't think the Tai exist on the CK3 map, since their "primary" counties would be to the east of where the map ends.

2. I am gonna chime in and support the idea that their should be a lot more tribal counties in India. And that the culture groupings are far too monolithic considering how diverse India is even in the modern day.
Ok guys, adding to the OP post!
 

Slime99

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2. I am gonna chime in and support the idea that their should be a lot more tribal counties in India. And that the culture groupings are far too monolithic considering how diverse India is even in the modern day.
Munda-Sprachen.png

Munda speaking people probably should be added there as an example of tribal peoples. They're Austroasiatic so that itself increases the diversity. Their region was also very tribal.
 
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