Culture groups need to be removed

[qweyt]

After the announcement of the cultural changes in 1.16 there have been quite a bit discussion about what culture should be in which group, but the real problem is that cultures in reality don't fall into distinct groups. Especially if you separate language from culture like Paradox seems to be doing now, cultures tend to be most closely related to those that are geographically closest to them making almost all culture group borders problematic.

I think the Carpathian culture group which groups together Romanian, Transylvanian, Hungarian and Slovak is a great example of this. Romanian is closely related to Transylvanian and it certainly makes sense to have the two in the same group. The same can be said for Transylvanian and Hungarian as well as Hungarian and Slovak. However, Slovak and Romanian are not related at all and seeing them grouped together is simply wrong, while at the same time Slovak is separated from Czech, which is culturally much closer to it.

For these reasons I think the concept of culture groups should be abandoned entirely. Instead, each culture could have a list of related cultures which would act the same way as the cultures in the same group do now. For example Hungarian would be related to Slovak and Transylvanian, while Slovak would be related to Hungarian and some West Slavic cultures, but not to Transylvanian. There are similar examples all over the world and this kind of system would make culture in the game a lot more realistic.

Another reason why I think culture groups should go is that it's at least for now a very rigid system and it doesn't allow for cultures to shift from one group to another. This could be an interesting gameplay mechanic and it happened historically during the timeline as well. For example Albanians certainly weren'y related to Turks in 1444, but later on the Albanian culture was heavily influenced by the Ottomans. Many Albanians converted to Islam and some reached high ranking positions in the Ottoman Empire. It would be justified to say that the two were related by the end of the timeline, but currently ingame it's not possible for one province Albanian to be accepted in a large country like the Ottoman Empire.

This could also be solved by keeping the culture groups while making them more dynamic, but I think the related cultures approach would be good for this one as well. In practice if for example Austria conquers Hungary and controls enough Hungarian provinces, Hungarian could become related to Austrian. This could happen automatically after some time or it could require an investment of monarch points, whichever works best for the game balance. Essentially this would offer an alternative for culture conversion.

 

[erkkijuusto]

I started reading this post thinking "oh silly, culture groups need to be there, otherwise there would be a mess of cultures with no connections to each other, meaning the gameplay would suffer."

Now that I've read the whole of OP's post I realised that culture groups are very inaccurate and limiting, and the idea of 'related cultures' seems so much better and flexible than culture groups. Geographical culture groups don't really represent the real cultural situation in the game's timeframe, and dynamic culture relations would be nice too. I fully support the OP's idea.

 

[_Rasputin]

I like the sound of this, if implemented correctly it could add a whole new element to game.

 

[BarskiPatzow]

I was thinking the same. Cultures need to be dynamic and cultural influence should be presented to the game in a way.

 

[Me_]

I think that this is a very good idea, especially now that fixed cultural union tags are gone.

 

[Gratak]

After the announcement of the cultural changes in 1.16 there have been quite a bit discussion about what culture should be in which group, but the real problem is that cultures in reality don't fall into distinct groups. Especially if you separate language from culture like Paradox seems to be doing now, cultures tend to be most closely related to those that are geographically closest to them making almost all culture group borders problematic.

I think the Carpathian culture group which groups together Romanian, Transylvanian, Hungarian and Slovak is a great example of this. Romanian is closely related to Transylvanian and it certainly makes sense to have the two in the same group. The same can be said for Transylvanian and Hungarian as well as Hungarian and Slovak. However, Slovak and Romanian are not related at all and seeing them grouped together is simply wrong, while at the same time Slovak is separated from Czech, which is culturally much closer to it.

For these reasons I think the concept of culture groups should be abandoned entirely. Instead, each culture could have a list of related cultures which would act the same way as the cultures in the same group do now. For example Hungarian would be related to Slovak and Transylvanian, while Slovak would be related to Hungarian and some West Slavic cultures, but not to Transylvanian. There are similar examples all over the world and this kind of system would make culture in the game a lot more realistic.

Another reason why I think culture groups should go is that it's at least for now a very rigid system and it doesn't allow for cultures to shift from one group to another. This could be an interesting gameplay mechanic and it happened historically during the timeline as well. For example Albanians certainly weren'y related to Turks in 1444, but later on the Albanian culture was heavily influenced by the Ottomans. Many Albanians converted to Islam and some reached high ranking positions in the Ottoman Empire. It would be justified to say that the two were related by the end of the timeline, but currently ingame it's not possible for one province Albanian to be accepted in a large country like the Ottoman Empire.

This could also be solved by keeping the culture groups while making them more dynamic, but I think the related cultures approach would be good for this one as well. In practice if for example Austria conquers Hungary and controls enough Hungarian provinces, Hungarian could become related to Austrian. This could happen automatically after some time or it could require an investment of monarch points, whichever works best for the game balance. Essentially this would offer an alternative for culture conversion.

I do not know about any details in the new Carpathian group but if you say that they are pairwise related to each other, there should also be some connection between Slovak and Romanian. I rather think that the system you are suggestion will complicate matters without adding worthwhile.

Regarding the "culture shift from one group to another" and the "hungarian become related to austrian": This is already captured in the accepted culture mechanic.

 

[Thrownman]

Perhaps the next expansion should be focused on dynamic cultures. It's weird that the player force converting is the only thing that can change the culture of a province. I think it's also strange that language has little influence on culture anymore. I would argue it's the most important aspect of culture, as would many historians.

 

[Me_]

Regarding the "culture shift from one group to another" and the "hungarian become related to austrian": This is already captured in the accepted culture mechanic.

Not very well, as when your nation grows, accepted cultures tend to fall below the treshold. Plus accepted cultures are instant, while a timed system would make more sense.

 

[theJ]

Perhaps the next expansion should be focused on dynamic cultures. It's weird that the player force converting is the only thing that can change the culture of a province. I think it's also strange that language has little influence on culture anymore. I would argue it's the most important aspect of culture, as would many historians.

Eh, I dunno... I mean, I speak English rather well, if I do say so myself, but I'm pretty sure that does not make me a Brit...
Don't get me wrong, language is a factor here; people who speak the same language will have a MUCH easier time passing along ideas, and as such could very well form a cultural relation to one another, given enough time... but that doesn't mean speaking the same language translates to being of the same culture.

 

[kvk]

Not very well, as when your nation grows, accepted cultures tend to fall below the treshold. Plus accepted cultures are instant, while a timed system would make more sense.

But would a timed system be good for the game balance? Nations already get a lot stronger with time. It would be good for flavour.

 

[qweyt]

I do not know about any details in the new Carpathian group but if you say that they are pairwise related to each other, there should also be some connection between Slovak and Romanian. I rather think that the system you are suggestion will complicate matters without adding worthwhile.

Regarding the "culture shift from one group to another" and the "hungarian become related to austrian": This is already captured in the accepted culture mechanic.

It's true that there is some connection between Slovak and Romanian, like they both speak a Slavic language, but so do the Russians and Serbians. Slovak is much closer to Czech than it is to Romanian. And the culture continuum covers almost entire Europe from Slovak to Czech to German to Dutch to Flemish to Walloon to French to Occitans to Catalans to Aragonese to Spanish. If being part of the same culture continuum is enough to be in the same group then all of Europe should be a single culture group. With culture groups you must either have way too large groups or have some closely related cultures belong to different culture groups.

It's also true that the current system works for making Hungarian accepted in Austria, but it doesn't work for many smaller cultures like Albanians in the Ottoman Empire. Currently these small cultures are always either eternally unaccepted or they get converted away, neither of which is historical in many situations.

 

[tahlaskerssen]

I agree 100%. The idea of accepting a culture based on the % of base tax value is stupid. Accepting a culture and after blobbing losing that is really no sense.

Looks like we accept Ruthenian culture now!

20 years later.

Ruthenians : "Guess you guys went too big. We don't like you anymore"

I needs a mechanics change.

 

[Gratak]

I agree 100%. The idea of accepting a culture based on the % of base tax value is stupid. Accepting a culture and after blobbing losing that is really no sense.

Looks like we accept Ruthenian culture now!

20 years later.

Ruthenians : "Guess you guys went too big. We don't like you anymore"

I needs a mechanics change.

While I agree that it does not make sense in terms of realism, it is good for balancing as it helps smaller countries. What would be nice would be permanent accepted culture by events. Albania could be an example of this, although I doubt that by the time that event could fire (would need a few hundred years historically I guess), it would be of any help... Another example could be a permanent accepted culture towards an inherited PU's primary culture.

 

[Simbachu]

This system sounds very interesting, and feels a lot more understandable and explainable than the current.

 

[Dovska]

I 100 % agree.

 

[Xara]

I think the Carpathian culture group which groups together Romanian, Transylvanian, Hungarian and Slovak is a great example of this. Romanian is closely related to Transylvanian and it certainly makes sense to have the two in the same group. The same can be said for Transylvanian and Hungarian as well as Hungarian and Slovak. However, Slovak and Romanian are not related at all and seeing them grouped together is simply wrong

The transitive property would disagree with you

 

[gronak]

I completely agree. Scottish is similar to Irish culture, but in game they do not get along at all. English is not similar to Irish, so it is with your suggestion that this can be fixed.

 

[PiriReis]

yes.

 

[Arcyinkwizytor]

It's true that there is some connection between Slovak and Romanian, like they both speak a Slavic language

Romanian is not a Slavic language.
But I agree with the rest.

 

[Aries666]

How about this, whenever you conquer a province of a brand new culture the province gets a cultural acceptance modifier from -100%-0% affecting things like manpower etc. This would tick from -100% to 0% over time. Now if you make the value of that tick proportional to how much of that culture you control (as a % of total dev), something like Ottomans conquering Albania could become accepted quickly whereas France conquering Kent would almost never be accepted without the French conquering more English territory.

Edit: thinking about it it would better if culture changed from -50% to +50%, both so that accepted cultures are more productive and because of the way it would interact with LA.