Cultural wonders, prizes, and booty

[Savant]

OK, here is a GREAT idea because I'm Venetian. Those of you who know anything about Venetian history and one of my personal heroes - Enrico Dandolo, can well appreciate this idea. Also, if you are into France and Napoleon, you will like this idea alot too.

1. Each nation that had a historically reknown national or cultural prize may build its "wonder" (maybe use a German or French word so it doesn't get directly lifted from Civ) from which it gets certain benefits. These are culturally specific and only the actual nation that built it in history may do so again. But, it requires the right conditions in terms of technology and resources (ducats) and maybe a key historical figure to pull it off.

2. Once the wonder is built, and it takes like at least 5 years to do so, the nation gets specific benefits (maybe to naval tech for example or troop morale). The nation may benefit from the wonder for different amounts of years so one wonder may have an effect for just 10 years and anothe rmay effect things for 100 years or more.

3. Some wonders may be captured and used by a conquering nation. The "wonder" may be a technology and the conquering nation may require sharing that knowledge (Brown Bess). The wonder could be a building or statue that gives that nation relationship benefits and cannot be captured and the wonder's effects can't be shared by another nation unless the province of the wonder is captured outright (Constantinople). The wonder could be transportable such that having it in your possession gives you specific benefits (The Quadriga of St. Mark's).

OK, now you may shoot the messenger. I will stand perfectly still with my arms at my sides as you take aim.

 

[celedhring]

It reminds me of Civilization...

Also, that would not be realistic. Those "wonders" weren't widely known and appreciated well until XIX century.

 

[Savant]

OK, granted

on both scores. Just seems like there was a lot of reason for plunder in the early part of the era and that is not reflected in EU 1.

Also for example, recall the Templars and other societies had many riches and these were confiscated by the state. Of course, the Templar case is early 1300's but then weren't the Protestants, Jews, and others also treated similarly by their "hosts" and used to fill royal coffers?

 

[unmerged(2539)]

Not really sure i like the initial idea to much, but how about squinting at it through a smoke filled room, till it looks like this:

Instead have historical events that are triggerd by a nation, and only some can trigger that event, when they are the first to reach a technology, so national banking with double entry book keeping allows a dramatic inflation drop for the first nation that gets it, those that follow get a lower drop as the follow the new fangled ideas, the first to get the tech that allows Militry institutes a bonus in combat(Different ones for land and Sea), that stays in force until the next school of militry thought is introduced by the next militry institute, this will allow shools of thought of the great thinkers of the day to be simulated as a national trait rather than just for leaders, you as a player can focus on getting to frederican methods of war and gain an advantage over the fools who think Machavila was clever. The nation that eastablishes its guilds of adventurers first gets an explorer, so id go for distinct advantages for being the first to achieve any one of what is considered a cultural breakthrough, be it in the mil/Scie/Polit/ or whatever field, all others will imitate the original but so well till much later. After all the first nation to get to a tech level that allows ships to be so sturdy that theu can fire a broadside without shaking the ship apart should get something for its trouble. A navel acadamy(charter house) provides competent trained ship masters, a reward is in order is it not?, and so on. You dont even have to think about it, the events are already in the history books, you just key them them to a country being the first to get to the event.

Hannibal

 

[Savant]

Ooooooooooooooh !

I like it!

Yes I do Hannibal. Very much!
That seems like an excellent suggestion over the original idea and something that the game engine could deal with relatively easy.

BTW, just saw your movie this weekend.. you know, the "other" namesake? Man, I can't get that image of morphine and sliced brain out of my mind!

May end up having to change my signature to bedazzled broiled beaver or sumink.

 

[unmerged(4868)]

Originally posted by celedhring
It reminds me of Civilization...

Also, that would not be realistic. Those "wonders" weren't widely known and appreciated well until XIX century.

that's correct. modern archeaology did not appear until the 1800s. that's when the first British and French archeaologists really started taking interest in the great Wonders of the World, and making sure to preserve them and appreciate them as cultural and historical treasures.

so what came before them? Simple grave robbers, tomb raiders, and other hoodlums who did not give a crap about the ruined temples and pyramids or ancient statues or buildings. they simply carved them up and stole the gold or brick or marble from these "wonders"

 

[State Machine]

I like Barca's ideas as well. Some changes were very innovative and gave the originator a great advantage before being adopted by all - maybe...

But what does it mean in game terms? William of Nassau's instituted great military reforms, but Gustavus II of Sweden brilliantly adopted those changes and had great success in Germany during the 30 Years War. His opponents came to adopt these tactics during the war. Should the Netherlands get the advantage for creating the "technology" - no. Should Sweden get the the advantage for using the technology - yes, but only for a while.

How should it work? I'm sure there are plenty of examples of "technologies" where the originator had an advantage for a long time, compared with lots of other examples like I've given.

 

[unmerged(4949)]

I agree that Barca's ideas are very compelling.
However, unless there are more than 4 research avenues (I don't count stability as one), it could unbalance the game.
Breaking up land technology into different categories (ie infantry, cavalry, artillery, etc) would solve this problem, but then complicate the game play.

 

[viper37]

I think there's already some kind of "wonder system" implemented in the game. Somewhere on the EU page, it is mentionned you can choose to build Versailles or not to build it, each with its adverser effecs.

 

[unmerged(945)]

I really like Hannibal Barca`s idea, except for one nagging little detail... The most advanced state in the world in a particular area would also be the most likely candidate for gaining the next tech level first as well. If you were to be given a reward/wonder for being the tech-leader that would propably mean that the same state would get this reward many times over, and those extra benefits would add up too.

Imagine France in EU1 which is usually the Land tech leader of the major powers, how would they be if they had 18 "land tech wonders" as well?

My point is: the technology leaders usually stay there (in the game at least)

Off course, HUMAN players have a tendency to slightly screw the tech race a little too

 

[unmerged(2539)]

The purpose of tying each of the bonuses to a nation would solve this problem, the country zipping through a tech tree as the first one will only get those bonuses that apply to it as a nation or culture, and prevent others from being the first.

If there are a few more intrested parties ill post a fuller example after the weekend.

Hannibal

 

[Ansgar]

Benn, would it really complicate the game to brake up technology into a larger number of different categories?
I don't really see a huge problem here, but there may be aspects I haven't considered...

 

[State Machine]

Originally posted by Hannibal Barca
The purpose of tying each of the bonuses to a nation would solve this problem, the country zipping through a tech tree as the first one will only get those bonuses that apply to it as a nation or culture, and prevent others from being the first.

If there are a few more intrested parties ill post a fuller example after the weekend.

Hannibal

Tease.

I think the tech tree scheme needs reworked to allow this kind of thing. Currently tech levels represent both acquiring the technology and implementing it. These need to be split. You invest in acquiring knowledge, then you invest in implementing it if and when you wish. This also handles the linear tech tree which causes some unhistorical results, allowing Benn's point about different specific technologies to be disassociated with linear technology development.

 

[unmerged(945)]

By hardcoding these bonuses to specific nations you are creating a more rigid game though, favorising nations that may or may not rise to greatness (a lot of things can happen over 400 years)

As an example, Cologne invades and annexes most of France, would France`s bonuses then be attainable for Cologne? Should the potential bonus be tied to the Nation as such or a specific area/province?

 

[unmerged(4949)]

Originally posted by Ansgar
Benn, would it really complicate the game to brake up technology into a larger number of different categories?
I don't really see a huge problem here, but there may be aspects I haven't considered...

For people who play Civ2 or like complexity, this won't be too large of a problem. What I was commenting on is that there is already so much to micromanage-- merchants, placing colonies, diplomacy, chasing pirates. I think some will welcome it, others will find gameplay even slower.