Cultural groups

[Otger]

Hello to everyone.
Yesterday I downloaded the demo and I love it, it's great. But I have to complain about the cultural groups, because it makes no sense that the catalan and the occitan aren't in the same one.
Personally I think that they should have their own group, away from the rest of the Iberic and the francophone languages, but if that's not possible they should be together in one of those groups, but always together. Specially in the XI century.
Plus, that would make the game more interesting because in the two games that I have played France have conquered a lot of land in the Iberian peninsule. It would be better if they should care more about keeping their big and powerful realm together and mantaining happy their foreign vassals rather than to be conquering so far away from their land.

Here there's a link about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages

I speak catalan, and even nowadays (8 centuries separeted from each other) I can almost fully understand an occitan person (speccially if they are from the area of Tolosa or Carcassona so imagine 8 centuries ago.

And then, I have a question too. I would like to know if you can try to change the culture of a province, because I haven't seen any option like that. Thank you.

GREAT game! I love it, congratulations and thank you for developing it

 

[Captain Gars]

And then, I have a question too. I would like to know if you can try to change the culture of a province, because I haven't seen any option like that. Thank you.

There's no decision or action the ruler can take to change the culture of a province. But there are events that will do so eventually. How fast they trigger depends on a number of factors, like being in the same culture group or not, etc.

 

[Otger]

There's no decision or action the ruler can take to change the culture of a province. But there are events that will do so eventually. How fast they trigger depends on a number of factors, like being in the same culture group or not, etc.

Thanks.
So that means that beeing french not only will be easier to hold occitan vassals and lands, It also will be easier to change their culture?
If I understood that well then it means that the mistake about catalan and occitans is even bigger
Thank you

 

[Arko]

Thanks.
So that means that beeing french not only will be easier to hold occitan vassals and lands, It also will be easier to change their culture?
If I understood that well then it means that the mistake about catalan and occitans is even bigger
Thank you

yeah having frankish is the latin group is a bit odd but seems essential to keep occitania under french rule. (if it is what's wanted).

 

[Traj161]

There's no decision or action the ruler can take to change the culture of a province. But there are events that will do so eventually. How fast they trigger depends on a number of factors, like being in the same culture group or not, etc.

is it the event that is in the province event file ?
because in that file only stewardship affects it.
or aren't those files in the demo yet ?

 

[Otger]

yeah having frankish is the latin group is a bit odd but seems essential to keep occitania under french rule. (if it is what's wanted).

Maybe that's true but that's not realistic at all (althought I'm talking about Catalan and Occitan beeing separeted in the game).
Half of Occitania was under the catalan king in 1200, the other half was under the duke of Aquitaine. Even before the count of Barcelona became aswell the King of Aragón, he controlled Provence, Milhau, Gavaudan, Carcassona and Rasès (even Carlat in Auvergne), and I'm talking just 40 years after hastings.
By the 1200s they controlled all what in the game is the Duchy of Toulouse. And only the death of the catalan king suposed that the french finally controlled the region but as foreigners with a lot of trouble from the peasants.

I don't see the point of helping so much the kingdom of France, because they are so powerful when the game begins and they have no worries at all, so they start declaring war on muslims in the Iberian Peninsule. Plus, as I said, is not realistic.
Nowadays Catalan is the closest related language to Occitan, and 9 centuries ago they could be considered as the same language. So I don't understand why they are in different cultural groups.

 

[Arko]

Maybe that's true but that's not realistic at all (althought I'm talking about Catalan and Occitan beeing separeted in the game).
Half of Occitania was under the catalan king in 1200, the other half was under the duke of Aquitaine. Even before the count of Barcelona became aswell the King of Aragón, he controlled Provence, Milhau, Gavaudan, Carcassona and Rasès (even Carlat in Auvergne), and I'm talking just 40 years after hastings.
By the 1200s they controlled all what in the game is the Duchy of Toulouse. And only the death of the catalan king suposed that the french finally controlled the region but as foreigners with a lot of trouble from the peasants.

I don't see the point of helping so much the kingdom of France, because they are so powerful when the game begins and they have no worries at all, so they start declaring war on muslims in the Iberian Peninsule. Plus, as I said, is not realistic.
Nowadays Catalan is the closest related language to Occitan, and 9 centuries ago they could be considered as the same language. So I don't understand why they are in different cultural groups.

I'm agree with you on those points.
Anyway I will probably mod in a Kingdom of Occitania (a-historical I know but pretty plausible), and so I should have to mix up a bit cultures.

 

[Onedreamer]

Occitania isn't under french rule because Occitania never existed. To this regard I agree with the OP because it is definitely historically plausible that the occitain regions would unite in an independent kingdom. Castille and Aragon united only thanks to a royal marriage it wasn't a cultural process and they did so outside CK's timeframe. Moreover the population culture in Savoie and Piedmont is italian (?!), the ruler is Frankish, somewhat accurate but his wife was from Aquitaine and the last daughter Berta married the king of Aragon, just to show with an example how at the time the cultural connection between the Alps and Pyrenees was more than just a secondary subculture of France.

 

[Otger]

I just played another game and once again France conquered a lot of lands in the Iberian Peninsule and the catalans and aragonese were wiped out, or almost wiped out by the muslims. It seems to be a constant in the game, and I'm not surprised seeing the amount of facilities that France have easing their way.
I have to admit that I'm a little bit sad that such lovers of history as Paradox are not able to see the "real" history of France instead of the "official version" that "they wrote" themselves for creating a nation.
I think that just 2 centuries ago from nowadays only the 10% of France population could speak french, that's something to be aware of.

I cannot understand the decision of splitting the catalan and occitan cultures except for being influenced by all the crap that the new modern states wrote about themselves and their own history when they were created.

I put this map just because it's a little bit more easy to see than to read and then look for it in a map. So excuse me for all the inaccuracies.

And just 40 years after hastings territories like Provence, Auvernha, Montpelhièr, Carcassona or Rasès were part of the possesions of the Count of Barcelona before he became aswell King of Aragon and liege of Tolosa.
In fact, the count of Barcelona at that time was born in Rodés. Way up to the north as you can see in the picture.
So I think that this should be fixed in the game in order to add some realism.

The French were foreigners conquering and ruling Occitània. And I think that this mistake in the game is not only an inaccuracy and not realistic at all, it also does that the kingdom of France is way too strong and not worried about revolts inside their own borders.

Once I've said all that, I have to repeat that I think it's a great game and I'm loving it. And thank you very much for developing it.

 

[Arko]

The French were foreigners conquering and ruling Occitània. And I think that this mistake in the game is not only an inaccuracy and not realistic at all, it also does that the kingdom of France is way too strong and not worried about revolts inside their own borders.

It is not inaccurate the way it is done as it follows history. In fact France have install its rule over Toulouse at the albigesian crusade that was reality. History could have turn another way if that if this if if if etc...
Paradox choosing to follow the history path or "favoriting" it is a choice.

But OC everyone can mod it the way it feel apropriate. Modding possibility is a great feature of PI games. Yay to them !

 

[Otger]

It is not inaccurate the way it is done as it follows history. In fact France have install its rule over Toulouse at the albigesian crusade that was reality. History could have turn another way if that if this if if if etc...
Paradox choosing to follow the history path or "favoriting" it is a choice.

But OC everyone can mod it the way it feel apropriate. Modding possibility is a great feature of PI games. Yay to them !

It's inaccurate the moment that you split the occitan culture from the catalan. It makes no sense that the game considers the french language closer to the occitan than the catalan with the troubles that this create in the game.
And it's also inaccurate because since hastings until 1213, the Count of Barcelona became stronger and stronger in the region while the french kings had trouble to manage the area. That isn't reflected in the game as it is right now.

 

[Arko]

It's inaccurate the moment that you split the occitan culture from the catalan. It makes no sense that the game considers the french language closer to the occitan than the catalan with the troubles that this create in the game.

you're right. It is a game design choice.
Culture have it influence in game balance and game mechanics.
But I repeat it, we can shape it the way we prefer.

And it's also inaccurate because since hastings until 1213, the Count of Barcelona became stronger and stronger in the region while the french kings had trouble to manage the area. That isn't reflected in the game as it is right now.

in CK1 there is one start date where Aragòn rules Provença. At some periods counts and viscounts is the area where vassals of Aragòn though.
But i don't know how is it set up after 1066, we'll see with the full game.

 

[Otger]

I've been playing more and I have to say that I'm really disappointed
Not just about de occitan - catalan thing, but also about the sicilian, napolitan... the latin group... etc.

France anexes the Iberian Peninsule every game and they never have trouble with any vassal. Not even when I send my chancellor (or whatever is called now) to disturb relations with the Duchy of Tolosa.

And I'm no talking about a "what could have happened if..." I'm talking about things that did happen. Catalan nobles were occitan nobles, and the catalan king was an occitan king. The count of Barcelona controlled all those lands that I'm not going to say again. And I will wait to see the 1137 scenario but I doubt that will be accurate to the real history seeing what they've done with cultures and all that. But will see... and hope for the best.
It's just that I'm hurt because I would expect some more accuracy about that unharmful facts and I've found a game that jumps into the propaganda of the 19th century done by the states and all that crap.
I would like to see a France that has to repress occitans and kill almost everybody in order to keep their lands, like they did in real life.


And I have a question about the De jure realms, can they be changed? is it possible to change them from inside the game? is it possible editing them from the outside maybe?
How they affect to a king if he controls a duchy that the game considers de jure of another kingdom?
Thanks.

 

[A_Dane]

I'm pretty sure de jure kingdoms can be modded in the game files, but they can not be changed ingame

 

[Hashoosh]

De Jure owners get a CB on the people who hold them outside of their realms. Unfortunately, you cannot change the de jure borders of a realm in-game, however I would think its under history/provinces [provinceid]-province.txt, where you can edit the de jure owner.
About the Catalan/Occitan thing, it's a shame, but Paradox has always said that the culture groups don't always mean language, as strange as they can become in-game.

 

[Otger]

De Jure owners get a CB on the people who hold them outside of their realms. Unfortunately, you cannot change the de jure borders of a realm in-game, however I would think its under history/provinces [provinceid]-province.txt, where you can edit the de jure owner.
About the Catalan/Occitan thing, it's a shame, but Paradox has always said that the culture groups don't always mean language, as strange as they can become in-game.

That's how I did it in Europa Universalis, but in this one I only can change the culture there. I'm missing something.
Thanks

 

[Hroppa]

Check Common/Landed_titles.

 

[Otger]

Check Common/Landed_titles.

I tried to change that but something went wrong and the vasalls of the duchy of Tolosa became independent and stuff like that. But maybe I did something wrong. I'll keep trying, thanks.

 

[Trovador]

Ok, here's the mod to bring Occitan and Catalan cultures into the same group: http://www.mediafire.com/?e0d7r3b8uy08p82

I've not tested it yet, but I'm curious to see its effects in the game.

I think I should work... oh, and now the Catalans don't have the special iberian building, but this is not essencial.

Could someone test it, and give us some feedback?

 

[Otger]

Ok, here's the mod to bring Occitan and Catalan cultures into the same group: http://www.mediafire.com/?e0d7r3b8uy08p82

I've not tested it yet, but I'm curious to see its effects in the game.

I think I should work... oh, and now the Catalans don't have the special iberian building, but this is not essencial.

Could someone test it, and give us some feedback?

Thanks, seems to work fine . Althought I've just opened the game to have a look but I haven't played