Cultural conversion

[Mowers]

the cultural system severely restricted the development of EU2 due to over reliance on it during the later versions of the game. It became too much of an all important factor during eras of history when it wasnt important relative to the 20th century. Of course that changes over the course of the period and the game should reflect that.

Basically, tone down Culture and no cultural conversions are not realistic or historic - there were shifts but they were not ruler controlled and happened fairly randomly. And as we dont do exterminations etc it shouldnt be allowed. It should occasionally randomly happen but very rarely. The exception of course is new world immigration.

 

[joriandrake]

the cultural system severely restricted the development of EU2 due to over reliance on it during the later versions of the game. It became too much of an all important factor during eras of history when it wasnt important relative to the 20th century. Of course that changes over the course of the period and the game should reflect that.

Basically, tone down Culture and no cultural conversions are not realistic or historic - there were shifts but they were not ruler controlled and happened fairly randomly. And as we dont do exterminations etc it shouldnt be allowed. It should occasionally randomly happen but very rarely. The exception of course is new world immigration.

There were ruler controlled changes, also: I WANNA CONVERT Carpaths and Balkans to Hungarian Catholic yaaay!!!! (even if this is not too realistic...and i DON't want to use mod. for it )

 

[Mowers]

There were ruler controlled changes, also: I WANNA CONVERT Carpaths and Balkans to Hungarian Catholic yaaay!!!! (even if this is not too realistic...and i DON't want to use mod. for it )

Hmm, can you give a list of historical examples beyond one offs?

 

[arcorelli]

The game should assimilate natives only when the hostility level is low. And also, The Kogi Empire, which encompassed most of eastern Colombia and Guyana at the time of the Spanish "discovery", was neither defeated nor assimilated. Its people still survive and hold on to their age-old ways continuously.

That is not a problem of hostility level, is a problem of spanish success.

Usually, whenever the Spanish effectively colonized and conquered they assimilated (the people started to talk in Spanish and were catholics). It was not always, and a lot of times the native communities were able to maintain their language and the lot, but there is a reason why almost all states from Mexico to south got spanish as an official language and spanish is talked from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego.

And I don't know a lot of other examples of cultural assimilation outside 'pagans' (and in the EU2 engine, China is not pagan)

 

[Brownbeard]

There were ruler controlled changes, also: I WANNA CONVERT Carpaths and Balkans to Hungarian Catholic yaaay!!!! (even if this is not too realistic...and i DON't want to use mod. for it )

Just grant everyone titles, that way all become Hungarians, even Magyars.

 

[NitramDatsgnos]

On new world cultures: I would prefer it if they would just melt together in a common "colonial" province culture once conquered/colonized. Noone (except the US/Peru/Mexico etc. if they can revolt within the games time frame) should have colonial culture as state culture, but it could be coded that the colonial culture only gives half the penalty of what other none-state cultures give, and maybe even a slight bonus to missionary success.

If we go with colonial culture, noone gets exterminated, since it includes indigenous people, african slaves and settlers alike.

 

[Casluerj]

On new world cultures: I would prefer it if they would just melt together in a common "colonial" province culture once conquered/colonized. Noone (except the US/Peru/Mexico etc. if they can revolt within the games time frame) should have colonial culture as state culture, but it could be coded that the colonial culture only gives half the penalty of what other none-state cultures give, and maybe even a slight bonus to missionary success.

If we go with colonial culture, noone gets exterminated, since it includes indigenous people, african slaves and settlers alike.

This would increase a lot tech cost for nations that depend entirely on colonial Empire, like Portugal for example, Nit.

 

[NitramDatsgnos]

This would increase a lot tech cost for nations that depend entirely on colonial Empire, like Portugal for example, Nit.

Indirectly, yes, since the province income is cut because of the culture difference. But like I said, the penalty from colonial province culture could be for instance half of the penalty from other foreign cultures. And the colonial income could be adjusted accordingly to remedy it.

My main point though; culture in the colonies does not equal the culture in the homeland in general, it should be a mix of several cultures. (I would just hate to see a thouroughly Swedish cultured Zimbabwe in EU3.) And if colonial culture is introduced as a culture with special rules connected to it - milder penalties for all potential owners - that would make them more attractive to fight over, as can be seen from the popularity of such rules in EU2 MP.

 

[joriandrake]

Just grant everyone titles, that way all become Hungarians, even Magyars.

'Magyar' is in Hungarian 'Hungarian' As is 'Deutsch' in english 'German' or 'ελληνικά' is 'greek' in its own mother language (if I'm right), or 'french' is 'français'... OK?

 

[Dairpo]

I don't think cultural conversian or a common "colonial" culture are good ideas.

I'd prefer to see an opportunity for cultures to be randomly added to your "state cultures" after a certain number of years (ie this process takes half a century or more, not years) possessing a certain number of x-cultured provinces (perferably in percentage of total provinces.. ie France gets Dutch culture if it has 20%+ of it provinces dutch.. or even better of its total population, if such a figure is even possible to calculate... but not if it has 17%--these numbers are arbitrary). This would represent the acceptance of the incorporation of ruling elites from other cultural/linguistic (as culture seems to be predominately based) groups within conquered territories. There should also be a random event that removes these cultures (though somehow protects original state cultures) if the percentage drops below "acceptable levels."

This does present some problems in terms of the Mamelukes in Egypt gaining Arab culture, or super empires being created in the Balkans (Ottoman, Hapsburg) or even in the former Indochina. Also the long time antagonism between English and Scottish, English and Irish, ect has the potential of being lost.

In response to the idea of a common colonial culture: there were great differences between the settler colonies of various European nations, especially (for example) England and France. Antagonism between English and French Canadians still exists, with its roots dating back to prior the Seven Years War in which England conquered New France. A common colonial culture would disregard the vast differences between various models of colonisation (English religious outcast vs French emphasis on good Catholics... I'm thinking of the 'Montreal Mystics').

At the same time the idea of im-/emigration seems to be historically fesible in light of the assimilation of Dutch and other small settlements in the British Colonies prior to the American Revolution. Also the explusion of the Acadians and influx of United Empire Loyalists transformed Francophone Acadia into bilingual New Brunswick and English Nova Scotia. I don't know how these could be represented in game terms... the Vicky model is a bit unweildy for a EU style game.

Cheers.

 

[Brownbeard]

'Magyar' is in Hungarian 'Hungarian' As is 'Deutsch' in english 'German' or 'ελληνικά' is 'greek' in its own mother language (if I'm right), or 'french' is 'français'... OK?

Thats the point. Magyar and Hungarian are not the same per default, its just that English lacks the word for Magyar. Hungarian, as in Natio Hungaricum includes only the aristocracy within the Crown of St. Stephen regardless of ethnicity. Magyar is ethnic designation.

 

[arcorelli]

On new world cultures: I would prefer it if they would just melt together in a common "colonial" province culture once conquered/colonized. Noone (except the US/Peru/Mexico etc. if they can revolt within the games time frame) should have colonial culture as state culture, but it could be coded that the colonial culture only gives half the penalty of what other none-state cultures give, and maybe even a slight bonus to missionary success.

If we go with colonial culture, noone gets exterminated, since it includes indigenous people, african slaves and settlers alike.

Besides gameplay reasons, the thing is that spanish settlers felt spanish until the last part of the XVIII century. And definitely having Mexico or US the same culture makes less sense that having US as anglosaxon and Mexico as iberian (the current setup). After all, regarding language (and language is a relevant part of culture), Mexico and Spain talk the same language, Brazil and Portugal do the same, US and England alike (well, almost the same language), but neither Mexico, Brazil and US talk the same language.

Colonial culture in the spanish empire was different of the spanish culture, right; but it was more different that the culture in the english colonies. And definitely, whatever culture went in the spanish colonies, should be state. Spain do not have that much problems ruling those lands by more than 200 years (some revolts as in any place). They should not in the game either.

 

[unmerged(53879)]

That is not a problem of hostility level, is a problem of spanish success.

Usually, whenever the Spanish effectively colonized and conquered they assimilated (the people started to talk in Spanish and were catholics). It was not always, and a lot of times the native communities were able to maintain their language and the lot, but there is a reason why almost all states from Mexico to south got spanish as an official language and spanish is talked from Mexico to Tierra del Fuego.

And I don't know a lot of other examples of cultural assimilation outside 'pagans' (and in the EU2 engine, China is not pagan)

1) China was pagan when they first had gunpowder,
2)Only pagans can be assimilated in EU2,
3) And three, the spanish didn't "convert" most of the time, they slaughtered the natives.

 

[King]

To be honest I would miss out culture all together and have regional and dynastic loyalities. I'll give you two examples.

Firstly for most of the EU period there was no such thing as a Frenchman, there were people who spoke French, but they were loyal to their region, a person from Normandy saw themselves as a Norman not a Frenchman. Thus when the Count of Soissons marched into France proclaiming that he would restore all the provincial liberities (that Louis XIII had revoked) there was nothing really to stop him. In fact at the time it was believed that the whole of France would rally to him. Except of course the fact that he had a nasty habit of opening his visor with a loaded pistol and ended up blowing his own brains out.

Next take the city of Lille, made part of France in 1667. It was a French speaking city, but they still celebrated the Brithdays and Weddings of the Hapsburg dynasty into the 1700's. They also helped Spanish soldiers and tried to induce French soldiers to desert during the frequent wars that France and Spain fought back then.

If you could model this you would be onto a winner.

 

[Registered]

Firstly for most of the EU period there was no such thing as a Frenchman, there were people who spoke French, but they were loyal to their region,

Worse then that, most people in what we, today, call France did not actually speak French. They would just speak their regional dialect. This situation persisted into the 19th century.

 

[Amadís de Gaula]

1) 3) And three, the spanish didn't "convert" most of the time, they slaughtered the natives.

You really have not the slightest idea of what happened. Read history books before writing that nonsense, fellow forumer.

We were far from Saints but very civilized, if you use XVI cent. standard.

I recommend you "The spanish empire" from Hugh Thomas and "Cortés" from Juan Miralles.

 

[joriandrake]

You really have not the slightest idea of what happened. Read history books before writing that nonsense, fellow forumer.

We were far from Saints but very civilized, if you use XVI cent. standard.

I recommend you "The spanish empire" from Hugh Thomas and "Cortés" from Juan Miralles.

History depends on who it tells.
Spaniards killed a lot of people, and also converted many
(they just didn't wanna die)
This rule is also true on other things.

There is something we here in Hungary says a lot:
"History is written by the winners"

 

[Sute]{h]

There is something we here in Hungary says a lot:
"History is written by the winners"

That is right. But the history of the Spanish colonial efforts most commonly told is the British version. Rarely do you hear the Spanish tell it, or the colonized and converted for that matter. That being said the Spanish empire did do a lot of atrocities, just not as many as is commenly thought. And none of the other colonial empires where angels either. I would recommend reading "Lords of all the World" by Anthony Pagden, which is the story of the story the English, French and Spanish told about their own empires and the other empires.

 

[unmerged(53879)]

Mass Murder

You really have not the slightest idea of what happened. Read history books before writing that nonsense, fellow forumer.

We were far from Saints but very civilized, if you use XVI cent. standard.

I recommend you "The spanish empire" from Hugh Thomas and "Cortés" from Juan Miralles.

let me give you a list of tribes massacred by the spanish:

Arawak
Taino
Ciboney
Chimu
All Argentinian tribes
97% of Uruguay Tribes
The Tierra del Fuego tribes

 

[Jordal]

Although the Spanish did massacre many natives, the vast majority of those natives, who died during the Spanish conquest, died as a result of disease, which can't really be blamed on the Spaniards.