Cultural Conversion... When?

[Heavenseed]

Playing The Duchy of Flanders in 1066 scenario with last beta patch, I conquered Jerusalem with surrounding territory and crowned as king in 1113. In twenty years whole demesne I had was religiously converted. Now playing into 1163, there's no sign of dutch culture in Outremer. I am curious when cultural conversions will happen or how is this patched in beta?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Playing The Duchy of Flanders in 1066 scenario with last beta patch, I conquered Jerusalem with surrounding territory and crowned as king in 1113. In twenty years whole demesne I had was religiously converted. Now playing into 1163, there's no sign of dutch culture in Outremer. I am curious when cultural conversions will happen or how is this patched in beta?

Culture conversion is very rare, I haven't seen one since ages. Problably there is something not working as it should.

Alltough cultural conversion should be very rare, especially with lands so far away from your home culture.

 

[Ciçatrix]

IIRC the provinces where the event is to spread to has to be directly connected to a province of that culture, and as there isn't (AFAIK) a spread-neighbour link between the Netherlands and Jerusalem, you won't be able to get Dutch culture in the holy land. Unless of course, you carve a path of Dutch culture across Europe.

 

[Hagie Sophia]

It still happens, albiet very rarely. Even playing as Byzantium, where Greek culture is right next door, I've only seen the event fire for Holy Land provinces a few times in several 100's of game years. It has happened to my vassals, though, which is kind of cool.

And I'll have to go back and double check my latest save game. The entire eastern Mediterrean sea was conquered by European powers through several crusades (which was a pain because I had to fight Catholics instead of Muslims to reconquer former Imperial territory...), and I could have sworn I saw some Swedish or Frankish provinces in there somewhere.

 

[Alexandre]

I am curious when cultural conversions will happen or how is this patched in beta?

I'm in the process of testing this out. There are a couple of important differences from vanilla and earlier betas.

1) Religious and cultural conversion have been delinked. Clerical power helps the former and hinders the latter. Burger power hinders the former and helps the latter. Noble power helps the latter. (If your goal is cultural assimilation, then keep the province till it converts, then reallocate power between the classes and hand it to a vassal.)
2) You need to have roadnet or civilian harbour in both the to and from provinces.
3) Religious buildings hinder assimilation. (I found this odd enough and counterintuitive enough that I've edited my files and am testing what happens if the clerics help spread the state culture.)
4) Palaces, theaters, schools, and royal posts all help assimilation as do the transportation buildings (roads & Harbours). Thieves, smugglers and robber bands hinder assimilation.
5) Culture now only spreads. It only spreads within a kingdom. It cannot spontaneously appear in an issolated province, not will it spread across kingdom lines.
6) Wealth, disease and looting all have important effects on the MTTH of cultural assimilation.
7) Various traits help/hinder assimilation, of which I'd mostly stress getting stewardship and intrigue to 14 or above, merciful, just and energetic. Avoid arbitrary, lazy and especially cruel or weak stewarship/intrigue levels.
8) Having both the to and from provinces ruled by the same person halves the MTTH. Terrain (especially mountain and marsh) retrads assimilation. Prestige (1000, 10,000 and 100,000) speed assimilation along.
9) Culture can only spread between provinces that both share your religion.

From my tests so far, it's clear that one really needs to pay careful attention to how one conquers and how one governs provinces. You need to look at your trade links since those will help you spread your culture to more distant areas. (Byzantion, Alexandria, Venice and Genoa are absolutely vital since they've got distant trading partners). Make sure that you build up your transportantion infrastructure as rapidly as possible. Focus on provinces that neighbor (or have trade links) with a province that shares your monarch's culture. Conquer provinces that border same-culture provinces.

I'd like to point out that my research, so far, is far from completed, and does involve modified files (I'm planning on making suggestions based upon my results, like I did with religious conversion a couple of months back, but am not ready to do so yet). I've also been playing Byzantium since I wanted a lot of cash, and the loyalty bonus since I'm moving dukes and counts around so that I can "fix" their provinces and see what happens.

With my modified files, and a game focusing on trying to assimilate, not to roleplay a real Byzantium, I'm getting about one conversion every 5-10 years. As my tech is improving, it's definitely picking up steam.

 

[unmerged(29883)]

Nice post, Alexandre...

I know it became a LOT rarer in recent betas. I was aware of some of the tricks you've mentioned to help increase cultural spread, but I wasn't aware of quite a few of them.

I think you missed another key one though. IIRC, the "from" province's ruler must have the same culture as the province. If, for example, an Englishman succeeds to the throne of France then there will be no cultural spread from his demense provinces unless and until those provinces change to English culture (which would have to be done via your vassals, and so is out of your control) - or your rulers heirs become French and start spreading French culture.

IIRC (and from what I've seen in-game), spreading culture using harbours is really, really inefficient compared to spreading culture with extensive roadnet. Again, IIRC, its an extensive roadnet, not a roadnet, which allows cultural spread. Basically, if you haven't got a land route to where you're going to (e.g., you're trying to spread Irish culture to Europe) then you need to cross your fingers and, if you can survive the disruption events, cling onto a mainland province with a harbour as part of your demense until it converts, then focus your efforts of conversion from there.

 

[Alexandre]

Nice post, Alexandre...

Thanks.

I think you missed another key one though. IIRC, the "from" province's ruler must have the same culture as the province.

I don't think so. Both rulers need to have the realm religion, though.

IIRC (and from what I've seen in-game), spreading culture using harbours is really, really inefficient compared to spreading culture with extensive roadnet. Again, IIRC, its an extensive roadnet, not a roadnet, which allows cultural spread.

You need either raodnet or civilian harbour in both the to and from provinces. Without them, you won't get the event.

However, having both roadnet and civilian harbour in a province only gives you a single .9 multiple, while having an extensive roadnet gives you a .9 multiple by itself. In each case, this helps regardless of whether the infrastrcture exists in the to or from province.

Basically, if you haven't got a land route to where you're going to (e.g., you're trying to spread Irish culture to Europe) then you need to cross your fingers and, if you can survive the disruption events, cling onto a mainland province with a harbour as part of your demense until it converts, then focus your efforts of conversion from there.

With the latest beta, you can no longer get a random assimilation. You can only get it via spread. However, you *can* get spread via a trade route (which means that a physically distant province is a neighbor). That may make it look like you've got a random assimilation at a distance. However, you haven't.

FWIW, it'll be much harder for the Irish to assimilate the world than it'll be for Greeks or Germans because they are issolated on a distant island, and will need to hop two oceans to reach the continental landmass. (To say nothing of Ireland's backwards technology.)

Alexandre

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Thanks.

With the latest beta, you can no longer get a random assimilation. You can only get it via spread. However, you *can* get spread via a trade route (which means that a physically distant province is a neighbor). That may make it look like you've got a random assimilation at a distance. However, you haven't.

Alexandre

So how does it work? I have Napoly in my Kingdom which is ruled by one of my Dukes. My king is Italian culture and I want to spread Italian culture to Acre, where my King's residence is at the moment. How can I do it?

 

[halvorni]

Religious conversion?

Is this a case of religious conversion:

I (the duke of Deheubarth) conquered Roma from the muslims during a crusade, and installed a guy as bishop and vassal.

Many, many years later a new crusade was called, also to free Roma. What??? At this time Roma was ruled by a guy called Saddam, bishop of Roma and Jerusalem. He was a muslim, and so I had the option to declare war on him, but he was still my 'devotedly loyal vassal'.

Is this WAD?

 

[Ciçatrix]

Is this a case of religious conversion:

I (the duke of Deheubarth) conquered Roma from the muslims during a crusade, and installed a guy as bishop and vassal.

Many, many years later a new crusade was called, also to free Roma. What??? At this time Roma was ruled by a guy called Saddam, bishop of Roma and Jerusalem. He was a muslim, and so I had the option to declare war on him, but he was still my 'devotedly loyal vassal'.

Is this WAD?

No, it is more a case of strange succession.
This bishop was elected from the courtiers, so if there was a Muslim courtier, he might have been elected as bishop. But it is not quite WAD.

 

[unmerged(48100)]

Is this a case of religious conversion:

Is this WAD?

More likely just bad luck

 

[Alexandre]

So how does it work? I have Napoly in my Kingdom which is ruled by one of my Dukes. My king is Italian culture and I want to spread Italian culture to Acre, where my King's residence is at the moment. How can I do it?

I don't have my chart infront of me, so can't give you an accurate breakdown. It's probably something along the route of Naples-->Genoa-->Alexandria-->some link to the Levant.

Remember, this isn't a fast process. With tweaks to the files that have moderately increased my assimilation rate, and a huge empire that can build up all of its provinces and fairly advanced tech, I'm only getting a single provincial conversion every 3-5 years. It is random -- I've got a province that's always been in my empire, is surrounded by Greek provinces and yet remains Armenian. Meanwhile, the newly conquered Arab desert provinces are all assimilating in very short order.

Alexandre

 

[Yakman]

Can cultural conversion only happen with the same demesne through spread? For instance, my neighbors greek provinces won't suddenly start speaking Italian?

 

[Jerrith]

From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), the ruler needs to have the same culture as the spreading province (the same_culture check in event 9007) in order for conversion to work. If the provinces are Hungarian but the king is German, for example, the hungarian provinces will not spread their culture because the ruler's is different.

This is sometimes unfortunate, because the ruler now has no event (that I know of or have seen by examining the files) to change provinces to his personal culture if its different. For example, in the case of the Norman de Hautvilles in Italy in 1066, they will never spread italian (or any other culture) to the greek or arab territorities in Calabria or Sicily, because their culture doesn't match their territory's! The only hope is to get the 15% chance of the ruler's kids becoming italian and then spreading it that way. This also means that if you install vassals in arabic territory (like sicily), they can only become arab and not culture-convert the provinces.

I wish there was some sort of event to force culture-convert territorities to the realm ruler's culture (like the forced religious conversions), or to at least convert the capital to the ruler's culture so it can start spreading that way.

 

[Alexandre]

Can cultural conversion only happen with the same demesne through spread? For instance, my neighbors greek provinces won't suddenly start speaking Italian?

It can only spread within a kingdom, but it'll spread (more slowly) between various subrulers within the kingdom.

Alexandre

 

[Alexandre]

From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong), the ruler needs to have the same culture as the spreading province (the same_culture check in event 9007) in order for conversion to work.

You'll be glad to hear that you are wrong. He only needs to be same religion. So, for example, I've got an Orthodox Hungarian prince of Pest. Pest converted to Orthodox, and subsequently assimilated (via trade links) to Greek. The ruler was and remains an Orthodox Hungarian.

This also means that if you install vassals in arabic territory (like sicily), they can only become arab and not culture-convert the provinces.

I've also conquered Sicily. It took a *long* time, but it's now completely Greek. So is Malta, which is ruled by a Dutch Orthodox count who converted from Catholicism.

I wish there was some sort of event to force culture-convert territorities to the realm ruler's culture (like the forced religious conversions), or to at least convert the capital to the ruler's culture so it can start spreading that way.

I'm becoming happier with the restriction of cultural change to spread. It's more realistic in the time frame and as I'm playing with it, I do see that it's definitely possible to engineer a cultural converstion (if you stack the decks). I'm getting closer to a point where I'm comfortable with posting suggested modifications to the current assimilation process, but having said that I'm surprised at how happy I am with most of the current changes now that I'm starting to see how they work and what the restrictions are. (Which doesn't mean that I'm not going to have a couple of significant tweaks that I'd like to see incorporated, just that there'll be a lot fewer suggested changes than I made with conversion a while back.)

Alexandre

 

[Jerrith]

You'll be glad to hear that you are wrong. He only needs to be same religion. So, for example, I've got an Orthodox Hungarian prince of Pest. Pest converted to Orthodox, and subsequently assimilated (via trade links) to Greek. The ruler was and remains an Orthodox Hungarian.
Alexandre

The way you described that, it sounded like you were sent aconversion instead of converting another. Was Pest independent, not a vassal of a larger kingdom? And, if it is in fact independent, now is Pest 'sending' greek to its surrounding provinces now, even though it still has a hungarian ruler?

 

[Alexandre]

Is this a case of religious conversion:

You've got to mentally delink conversion and assimilation; they are governed by seperate events have different requirements. For example, you *can* get random conversion, while you *cannot* get random assimilation. Conversion has a lower MTTH, and three different events while assimilation has a higher MTTH and only one event (i.e., you'll get more than three conversions for every assimilation).

Alexandre

 

[Alexandre]

The way you described that, it sounded like you were sent aconversion instead of converting another. Was Pest independent, not a vassal of a larger kingdom? And, if it is in fact independent, now is Pest 'sending' greek to its surrounding provinces now, even though it still has a hungarian ruler?

No, Pest is my vassal. So far, Greek culture hasn't spread to its neighbors, which isn't a great surprise since they're still ruled by Catholics. However, when they convert to Orthodoxy or I replace them with Orthodox rulers, Greek culture will spread to the neighboring provinces.

Alexandre

 

[Jerrith]

No, Pest is my vassal. So far, Greek culture hasn't spread to its neighbors, which isn't a great surprise since they're still ruled by Catholics. However, when they convert to Orthodoxy or I replace them with Orthodox rulers, Greek culture will spread to the neighboring provinces.

Alexandre

In that case, I believe it spread because the overall ruler (you) is still considered to be doing the converting, it's in 'your' realm even though its your vassal - you were doing the converting. I'm assuming your liege has greek culture?

What I meant earlier is that if the liege that has overall control of the realm, is Hungarian (for example), you would not see any culture spread unless the provinces were Hungarian. The culture of the vassal is not considered, it just checks for if they're in the same realm.

If you're running tests, a good way to check this stagnation would be to start up a quick game of Apulia in 1066 (owner of its realm, norman leaders, italian and greek provinces) and see if you are able to convert any provinces *without* changing the ruler's culture to one that matches the realm. So far, I have been unable to create any culture shift in this type of scenario so I would be very interested to hear if you are able to do so.