Cultural Assimilation -- Proposed Improvements

[Alexandre]

I've been playing extensively with cultural assimilation and have a few
proposals. But, I'd like to start off by eliciting any comments that other
players may have before formally submitting proposed changes.

I like the elimination of all but cultural spread; I think that it's much more
realistic. However, there have been extensive complaints about the inability of kings to change the culture of their kingdoms because they don't have any
same-cultured provinces. Since I don't want to go back to random
assimilation, I'd like to propose that we do allow assimilation across
national borders. That way, we keep the same number of events, but allow people to change their national culture without conquering the ancestral homeland. I'm happy to accept a slower spread across national borders; I just don't see any reason to prohibit it altogether.

I fundamentally disagree with the peace requirement for assimilation. After
all, war was often used as a method of replacing one population with another. We sort of have that with the greater chances of assimilated a looted province. My proposal is that looting should be reduced to .8 from .5 and peace no longer be a precondition to assimilation. I think that, over time, those two factors should more or less balance out (depending upon how long one spends in wars).

Churches currently hinder assimilation. I strongly disagree both because this
is ahistorical (cathedrals were stocked not with ethnic nationalists but with
members of the ruling class) but also for game play reasons. If I conquer a
province with religious edifices I have no option to destroy them in order to
speed up assimilation. I?d suggest changing all of the church edifices to .9.

The inquisition should not hinder assimilation but promote it. After all, the
Spanish inquisition punished such things as eating couscous. I?d change it
from 1.4 to .9.

I?m comfortable with the peasantry resisting the national culture, and leave
the influence of peasant power alone. Likewise, I'm happy to have the
nobility and burghers as forces of assimilation. However, I just don't see
the church resisting assimilation. Render unto Caesar . . . Just drop clergy
power as a factor in assimilation.

I like the different assimilation rates for different terrains. However, I'm
not completely happy with it's interaction with the build limits. Terrains
were one can't build road networks seem to take far too long to assimilate if
I get the plains right, while plains assimilate far too quickly if I get the
mountains right. I don't yet have numbers that I'm completely happy with so
can't suggest exactly how I think that things should balance here. I just
think that we've got to keep tweaking the existing balance till we get it
right.

I'd knock capital value down a bit -- say from .5 to .8, but counter it by
increasing the assimilation rate of grand shipyard from .9 to .8 (the same as a
grand palace).

I've been thinking back and forth about disease, and am leaning towards having it increase the chance of religious conversion and not playing a role when it comes to cultural assimilation.

I don't want religion to be a bar to assimilation. After all, there are
millions of Arab Christians, and pre WWI Turkey had a large Christian Turkish
minority. Remove same religion as a requirement to assimilation, and replace
it with a MTTO value of 3.

I don't like the way that local nobles are used to determine assimilation. A
non-state-religion ruler's province should be able to assimilate, though it
should serve to slow assimilation down a bit. Also, is it possible to increase
the chance of assimilation if the direct ruler shares the state culture? After
all, if the count is state religion, he should be able to encourage the
provincial nobles to assimilate as well, while a count who shares the
provincial culture should retard the culture spread.

Alexandre

 

[Lurken]

I like all your ideas. Wellthought and seems balanced. Maybe next beta or 1.06, if we are insanely lucky.

 

[Enravota]

there is no next beta, i believe, as 1.5 is comming in december.

i like your ideas too, but i guess you'll have to consider them for a mod as they might not make it in 1.5 (and there might not be a 1.6).

 

[Lurken]

(and there might not be a 1.6).

Sad but true

 

[Justinian_A]

I like those ideas. Quite a bit. I'm frustrated by the lack of cultural spread. I especially like it because I've tried to do what you suggested in the cultural spread thread...and it's not working for me, so I must have messed something up. At least this way, it would come coded into it.

 

[King of Men]

These ideas make good sense. Alexandre for MrT!

 

[Alexandre]

These ideas make good sense. Alexandre for MrT!

Thanks for the compliment, but at most I can, in Queen's English*, be Master T.

Alexander




* For all of you Stateside, in British English, "Master" is the term of address used to a boy, while "Mr" is the term of address used to an adult.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

These are rather extensive changes, have you tested them?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

there is no next beta, i believe, as 1.5 is comming in december.

i like your ideas too, but i guess you'll have to consider them for a mod as they might not make it in 1.5 (and there might not be a 1.6).

There seems likely to be a 1.06, but code changes might not appear as much as between 1.04a and 1.05

 

[Alexandre]

These are rather extensive changes, have you tested them?

Hi Byakhiam:

Yes, I have. The one area that I didn't get a proper balance was tweaking terrain & improvments, hence I didn't make a suggestion on how to change them. I also don't know how to (or even if one can) use the lord's culture to hinder/speed culture spread. Therefore, I'd definitely understand not incorporating any changes in those two areas in a regular patch and waiting till a post 1.05 beta.

As comparison, I'd point to the tweaks that I suggested for religious conversion, almost all of which were incorporated in the beta (in August, IIRC). I'm as comfortable with these proposed changes in cultural assimilation as I was in proposing those changes in religious conversion.

Please let me know if you need any more information.

Alexandre

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, it's just that I wouldn't want to see flawed cultural conversion in 1.05 nor delay it for testing them out. Could you summarily give out the proposed changes in event code, since it's easier (for me) to measure numbers like that, instead of figuring out the exact effects from big bunches of text.

B <-- Lazy o

 

[Alexandre]

Well, it's just that I wouldn't want to see flawed cultural conversion in 1.05 nor delay it for testing them out. Could you summarily give out the proposed changes in event code, since it's easier (for me) to measure numbers like that, instead of figuring out the exact effects from big bunches of text.

B <-- Lazy o

Sorry for the delay: I've been travelling on business.

modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { grand_shipyard = yes } }
}
factor = 0.8

# Those new fads from the capital are corrupting our youth!
modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_advance value = { inquisition = yes } }
}
factor = 0.9

modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_province_effect value = { looted = yes } }
}
factor = 0.8

modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { church = yes } }
}
factor = 0.9
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { large_church = yes } }
}
factor = 0.9
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { domed_church = yes } }
}
factor = 0.9
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { cathedral = yes } }
}
factor = 0.9
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { templar_house = yes } }
}
factor = 0.8
}
modifier = {
condition = { type = to
condition = { type = has_improvement value = { monastery = yes } }
}
factor = 0.8

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I do not think the monestary and templar house should affect them. They were much more removed from the province's population in general than the church's. At most they should affect it by 0.95, which might by that much, not really be worth it.

I'm also not sure looting should be good for this.

 

[Alexandre]

I do not think the monestary and templar house should affect them. They were much more removed from the province's population in general than the church's. At most they should affect it by 0.95, which might by that much, not really be worth it.

I'm also not sure looting should be good for this.

I've reduced the value of looting from the vanilla beta. (It was .5, which I found very unballancing.)

My biggest objection re religious buildings was to have them *slow* assimilation. While I'm personally in favor of having them help it along, my feelings are much stronger that they should not hinder assimilation than that they should actively help it.

So, I'm willing to consider your suggested changes, but doing so will require additional tweaking to get the ballance right. Therefore, my suggestion, which the demigods of Paradox may or may not follow, would be to incorporate my suggested changes into the patch, and then allow us to tweak them in the forthcoming betas. I never reached a good resolution to my plains vs. mountains assimilation issue as it is.

Alexandre

 

[unmerged(21937)]

How about we implement them after 1.05 and then can tweak them until we can get them all right? 1.05 ETA is after all very soon.

 

[Lurken]

How about we implement them after 1.05 and then can tweak them until we can get them all right? 1.05 ETA is after all very soon.

Sounds like a lovelly idea. I would love to see these ideas implemented in a beta after 1.05.

 

[Alexandre]

How about we implement them after 1.05 and then can tweak them until we can get them all right? 1.05 ETA is after all very soon.

You're the demigod around here. Who am I to disagree?

Alexandre