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Alratan

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Out of interest, why was Lucca not chosen as one of the Republics built into the DLC - is it due to the lack of reliable patrician families? Even if it's not included as a proper mercantile Republic, as the major rival of Pisa, the third largest Italian city-state (before Pisa) and one of the three truly independent/Most Serene Republics, it'd be nice if it was at least included as a separate state in later start dates for the next patch.

That aside, whilst I was quite enthusiastic about Republics before, the information so far about the new DLC has vastly exceeded my expectations. Bravo!
 

Talq

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Great stuff. Will feudal lords have something to counterbalance the Republics' CBs that allow them to take cities and entire counties? How will you prevent the AI from disembarking a 20K stack of mercs and assaulting their way to 100% in early years when the republics are already rich but fort levels are still low?

Nope, i kept saying if they wanted to add playable republics they needed to take out the coastal horde CB, but it's in.
It's gonna be trivial to just conquer everything with your endless mercs, money and free CBs.

The first DD already included some restrictions on marriages with nobles and inheritance, which cuts heavily into access to CBs based on claimants.

Furthermore, as others have said, you now require a tradepost to CB a city, then a city to CB a province, which restricts it a fair amount.


Out of interest, why was Lucca not chosen as one of the Republics built into the DLC

Unluckily it seems to have drawn the short straw with inclusion in the duchy of Tuscany. Also, Paradox probably wanted to emphasise those republics that most engaged in overseas trade rather than just the republican form of government (and also don't want all the Italian republics blocking each other out re trade posts or needing to rebalance genoa and venice so they dont get cut out by randomotheritalianrepublic every two games).
 
Last edited:

istoptime

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What about places with no coastal cites, seems like they were be a huge disadvantage here as anyone on the coast will eventually just be able to buy mercs and raid inland and the in-landers will have no way to counter it.
 

Portal

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From the screenshots released as well as what I understand from the DD, the sea provinces provide a zone of control. So the sea provinces are of importance. I don't exactly understand their true importance, but considering that the trade map overlay includes the sea provinces means they are part of the mechanic.



Nothing, but there is no way Doomdark is going to rewrite so much to do that; there are other ways to do that using the existing mechanics.

I'm saying that the overland trade structures I am proposing are literally just buildings that generate income. Nothing that rewrites the mechanics for sea trade.
 

NewbieOne

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Guys, this is about republics, not muslims. Make a muslim thread about muslims.



Nope, i kept saying if they wanted to add playable republics they needed to take out the coastal horde CB, but it's in.
It's gonna be trivial to just conquer everything with your endless mercs, money and free CBs.

They have weakened the CB so now you need first to build a trade post and then two wars to conquer a county. And conquering the county might actually give you little benefit compared to just conquering the city since what you are usually after is more money from the extended trade range.

The problem is that the AI will not take into consideration the human factors but will instead calculate mathematically, like a computer. That's probably a good way to reflect a sociopathic individual, which is not unlike republics really behaved in dealings especially with the Byzantine Empire but still...

As for gaining the coasts, mercenaries dropped off their ships and assaulting the holdings to 100% may work too well for them. Coastal county CB can often lead to creating or usurping ducal titles, which can lead to de iure claims for non-coastal provinces or coastal provinces without even a trade post (much less a city). In some cases, that can lead to forming kingdoms, for example Brittany or Wales, as there is only one Welsh province that doesn't have a coastline and none in Brittany. In fact, Scotland would be doable and especially those scores of independent and feuding Irish dukes and counts could easily lead to the formation of a Republic of Ireland in 12th century by Venice or Genoa, let alone Sicily close to home. Norway, Denmark, even Sweden, possibly Finland. Gallicia and Portugal closer to home. They will have even more cash, remember? The only real drawback being the lack of marital alliances. In the early period, when hiring every merc band present in the game already gives you a 25K stack while kingdoms can't get much above 8K stacks, they could become unstoppable.

Speaking of "even more cash", being Christian they will be able to combine the standard mercenaries with holy orders as long as they have the piety, and should certainly be able to hire the ships. Should make it easy to form stuff in Africa, along with whatever they take off any Christian princes winning holy wars there, in addition to snatching rebelling emirs in time.

Oh, and snatching entire counties will eventually give them levies, especially when they create or usurp duchies and conquer the remaining de iure counties. If they manage to complete a 20K levy base + cash for mercs, it's gonna be hard to resist them.

Well, we'll see. For one, I surely think they don't meddle nearly as much as they historically should.
 

Zireael

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I can tell we're going to get into a Manzikert debate now, lol.

It might help if we buff the Seljuks with the Silk Road, but turn them also against the Fatamids by making Shia a Sunni heresy. Now, this is slightly historical; Sunni and Shia did not view each other like Orthodox and Catholic. They usually considered themselves to both be Christian until the Fourth Crusade debacle and the Massacre of the Latins and such. However, the Sunni and Shia hated each other as heretics.

By making Shia a heresy, making the majority of Egyptian territories either Miaphysite or Sunni, linking Egypt with Nubia and Assyria via trade, nerfing holdings in Alexandria and Cairo, and introduce the Silk Road, we will have a number of things:

1. The Fatimids will be as historical. They will never attack Nubia or Assyria as they will be their only trade partners and allies. They will be systematically torn apart by the Sunni states in North Africa and the Seljuks. They will face constant rebellions by Sunni or Miaphysite rulers and peasants. They will never catch a break.
2. The Seljuks will progress as historical into Anatolia, possibly forming the Sultanate of Rum.
3. Byzantines may survive as historical. Or not, depending on the actions of the Seljuks. Considering the truces involved and the opportunities, I think Byzantium will progress roughly as historic without having to worry about the Fatamids Invasion of Greece.
4. Nubian and Assyrian survival and perhaps economic dominance. Imagine it; the once doomed nation of Assyria, now a merchant-kingdom, ruling the Red Sea and the Ethiopian trade routes!

This is a good idea.

A question from me: Will the trade posts be moddable?
 

AdamPA1006

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I might have a silly question but I know very little about this period of history but do have a good time playing CK2. My question is, is this "realistic"? Is this how these coastal provinces battled each other? Were there any fierce real trade wars?
 

liamgamer55

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Looks really good, not only is there the whole trade posts concept; but the game features exactly the sortof differences in governance and warfare style that will make playing republics both interesting... and different to any other game around ever.

There is another catch: the more distant a county is from your territory (regular Holdings), the more expensive it is to build a Trade Post there.
That will mean, as a fuedal lord there'll be a much higher incentive to create republics where there aren't many around. What will be done to prevent the ahistorical drive for; for example Spanish kingdoms to create merchant republics as soon as possible since there aren't many around there? Simply saying the AI won't do it is a bit of a cop out. Perhaps if holy orders are engaged in trade in a similar way like I believe they were historically this would balance out the areas a lot. Hopefully there's a holy order/religious major dlc in the pipeline at some stage.

I might have a silly question but I know very little about this period of history but do have a good time playing CK2. My question is, is this "realistic"? Is this how these coastal provinces battled each other? Were there any fierce real trade wars?
I don't even care that much about history personally, I just like a strong narrative to be in the games I play which fantasy or psuedo historical games very often lack. Changing gameplay to suit history and not doing it completely the other way around (cough cheesy CA choices) tends to make for a far more interesting game atmosphere and gameplay wise. Hence why I find paradox games to be the best games of any grand strategy and or turn based strategy games.
 
Last edited:

Thure

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grumphie

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about the balance of fatamids, i think decadence was done wrong from the start. it shouldnt switch ruling dynasty, it should cause a realm to fall apart in rebellion and usurpers. then, when its more quiet, the uusurper/dynasty starts trying to take back old lands. this could result in syria forming, fatamids falling apart no matter their great ruler and also allow the seljuks to exist beyond their armenian conquest because their decadence will be low enough to keep vassels from rebelling.
 

liamgamer55

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Decadance was around before factions. The two mechanics could work together a lot better though for sure. Hopefully that stuff gets tweaked in a patch.
 

Pyriel

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Letar

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about the balance of fatamids, i think decadence was done wrong from the start. it shouldnt switch ruling dynasty, it should cause a realm to fall apart in rebellion and usurpers. then, when its more quiet, the uusurper/dynasty starts trying to take back old lands. this could result in syria forming, fatamids falling apart no matter their great ruler and also allow the seljuks to exist beyond their armenian conquest because their decadence will be low enough to keep vassels from rebelling.

Let's discuss the Fatimid balance issues in some other thread please, and continue the discussion of the Dev Diary in this one, thank you!
 

EU3NOOB

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I LOVE the republican system! I hope a similar system will be used for EU4, though it naturally wouldn't be character based. In EU4 it could be factions(in merchant republics they could still be called families, though in a Constitutional republic it would be called parties). This could be a DLC and one I would definitely buy!