Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion Announced!

[Camerooni]

From the amount of angst in this thread, and the fact that it's 'a random even in the late game' and even people who have expressed a desire to purchase it but only play it once or twice for curiosity.. would it be wise to have this the first DLC that is disabled by default on new game start?

(This is particularly a problem for Steam installs where you can't choose to 'not install' the DLC)..

 

[Orinsul]

Just a thought, if you threw in a couple Chariots of the Gods references then the DLC would be given the ahistorical plausibility it so painful lacks. Aztecs might not be able to pull it off, but Aztecs in possession of agricultural technology enhanced by the remnants of an alien spaceship would have no trouble calling up the numbers, organisation and stability required to paint the world in the red blood of their enemies still beating hearts.
And if they had said technology theyd also be able to put up pyramids fast enough for the events saying they already have them to make sense as even alittle one would take decades without either science-fiction or magic.

 

[Hurabi]

Ha! Can't wait to try this out! Shame we can't play as the Aztecs though. Man, this is gonna be wicked!

 

[Warspite_TW]

I bought a lot of Paradox games (as you can see form my registered games), and when CK II was announced I decided to give my full support for this game. I pre-ordered CK II the moment it was available, I bought all the DLCs up to date at full price, hoping that my money will be use for improving and enhancing the game even further. I have to say I am more then sad to see that you choose to invest my money and my trust in this joke.

 

[karl2025]

I can't believe the number of people who are getting mad that a video game company is doing something kooky, fun sounding, and original. My only problem with it so far is that you're not going to be able to play as them? Disappointing!

Also: Unless you're organizing people, you're not boycotting. You're just not buying something. Stop trying to glorify your choices.

 

[Chimix]

This could be perfect joke... still it's not a joke. Will buy this dlc and hope for baltic pagans will be next DLC.

 

[Wezqu]

I bought a lot of Paradox games (as you can see form my registered games), and when CK II was announced I decided to give my full support for this game. I pre-ordered CK II the moment it was available, I bought all the DLCs up to date at full price, hoping that my money will be use for improving and enhancing the game even further. I have to say I am more then sad to see that you choose to invest my money and my trust in this joke.

Most of the things in the DLC are taken directly from the EU4. Sprites for example so CKII developers haven't used very little time on this DLC. It has been stated several times but as you don't bother to read anything you blame them of doing something they didn't. I think this DLC took some intern a day to collect the information. I don't think any devs used other than a hour to add it in the game. They are most likely doing the next bigger DLC already and have been doing the whole time anyway. This is not any major dlc that adds tons of stuff. This most likely adds just few events, culture, religion and new title. Modder can do those things in few hours.

 

[Qantrix]

No. There is no racism going on here, you are so out of line even suggesting that.

He said it's subconcious. It's a pretty good explanation why people are so extraordinarily upset over it. Although I wouldn't call it racist, I do think it's part of this Eurocentric attitude that any threat against European civilization is preposterous and insulting. That any other civilization is less worthwhile and not really worth the trouble.

That's the reason why many of the critics say they would rather have seen Aliens then Aztecs. They could imagine Aliens being a threat to glorious European civilization, but Aztecs? Nooo, WE won that one! How could their pea-sized brains ever develop the technology?

"Moaners bitching", really? So it's not people/consumers/users complaining, voicing concern, criticizing or being negative - it's all moaners bitching? Charming.

It would be had this been a compulsory patch of the game. If Paradox had said "for balance purposes every scenario now includes Aztecs, deal with it" these people would have had a very good point. "[...] complaining, voicing concern, criticizing or being negative" is moaning and bitching when it is about stuff that doesn't really have any effect on you, when it apparently wasn't intended for you and wouldn't have disrupted your very existence if you hadn't felt it was necessary to moan and bitch about it.

 

[Kyoumen]

Your tears taste delicious.

I think there are three people on the forum, myself included, that actually read Bittenfeld's posts.

To put it plainly, he is clearly being satirical.

 

[Kyoumen]

Most of the things in the DLC are taken directly from the EU4. Sprites for example so CKII developers haven't used very little time on this DLC. It has been stated several times but as you don't bother to read anything you blame them of doing something they didn't.

Actually, the devs have stated that these sprites and portraits were made specifically for this DLC and were not reused EUIV assets. It was just a fan supposition that they came from EUIV.

Which makes sense, because EUIV is probably fairly unlikely to have detailed Aztec-specific portraits like this. The visual details here, though, are one of the primary reasons it's a day 1 purchase for me - they look AWESOME.

 

[Dovahkiing]

Buying this DLC is like taking a five-dollar bill, cutting out the portrait of Abraham Lincoln, then burning the portrait as an offering to the Great God Johan
:laugh:
Humorous metaphors aside, I'd buy this if it didn't interfere with my AAR, but of course an Aztec invasion would totally mess up its credibility.

 

[unmerged(475128)]

He said it's subconcious. It's a pretty good explanation why people are so extraordinarily upset over it. Although I wouldn't call it racist, I do think it's part of this Eurocentric attitude that any threat against European civilization is preposterous and insulting. That any other civilization is less worthwhile and not really worth the trouble.

That's the reason why many of the critics say they would rather have seen Aliens then Aztecs. They could imagine Aliens being a threat to glorious European civilization, but Aztecs? Nooo, WE won that one! How could their pea-sized brains ever develop the technology?

It's not just because of eurocentrism, an aztec invasion in europe would have been completely impossible for countless real reasons, like lack of the necessary naval technology, lack of knowledge of the existance of Europe, ocean currents that would never allow them to reach the european shores, very low population compared to Europe, backwards military tactics and weapons, etc.

 

[Kyoumen]

It's not just because of eurocentrism, an aztec invasion in europe would have been completely impossible for countless real reasons, like lack of the necessary naval technology, lack of knowledge of the existance of Europe, ocean currents that would never allow them to reach the european shores, very low population compared to Europe, backwards military tactics and weapons, etc.

Well, if we want to be technical about it, alien invasions of Earth are impossible for a lot better reasons than Aztec invasions of Spain (the logistics, for instance, are worse by several orders of magnitude and there is no possible resource Earth has that cannot be gotten from a much closer location). You could get seaborne Mesoamericans with absolutely ridiculous amounts of good luck (equivalent to dozens of kamikazes or Glorious Revolutions), because technically the resources are there for them to become seafaring; getting over the cold, hard facts of the ludicrousness of interstellar invasion is a lot harder no matter what imaginary technology is dreamed up.

The real thing is that this is is a joke fantasy scenario that is not intended to be plausible. It's fun to be counterfactual and try to come up with ways it could have happened (while ignoring that a surviving Vinland colony, or the lack of extinction of some megafauna, or the existence of any sort of plague, would warp Mesoamerican civilisation to the point that whatever existed in 1250 would almost certainly bear no resemblence whatsoever to the historical Aztecs or anyone else), but the DLC does not make any pretensions to being plausible and in fact gleefully revels in how ridiculous the concept is.

 

[Dakk]

He said it's subconcious. It's a pretty good explanation why people are so extraordinarily upset over it. Although I wouldn't call it racist, I do think it's part of this Eurocentric attitude that any threat against European civilization is preposterous and insulting. That any other civilization is less worthwhile and not really worth the trouble.

That's the reason why many of the critics say they would rather have seen Aliens then Aztecs. They could imagine Aliens being a threat to glorious European civilization, but Aztecs? Nooo, WE won that one! How could their pea-sized brains ever develop the technology?

"Aztecs and their pea-sized brains"? Really? I don't see that argument made anywhere by anybody. The reason why people would prefer Aliens to Aztecs (and that's not a very vocal crowd, is it?) is in the real-world timeline (our timeline) the likelyhood - no, the theoretical possibility - of a mesoamerican invasion at that time is effectively nil. So if something that couldn't have happened, and didn't happen, is going to happen, then it might as well be Aliens. Or zombies. Or nazis from the future. That's not bashing the DLC per se, realizing that Aztecs couldn't have invaded is just stating the obvious. It's surely not racism for crying out loud. I don't care if you label it "subconscious", it's still utterly false, not to mention offensive. "You don't like this DLC cuz' yer a racist" doesn't make for a discussion...

An analogy would be that saying that a Viking invasion of the U.S eastern seaboard today would be utterly crushed, is racism. Or positing that the Byzantine empire couldn't have flown to the moon, would be racist. In both cases the weaponry and technology just isn't there, it's plain facts. Let's not bandy about racism - it totally devalues the meaning of the word.

It would be had this been a compulsory patch of the game. If Paradox had said "for balance purposes every scenario now includes Aztecs, deal with it" these people would have had a very good point. "[...] complaining, voicing concern, criticizing or being negative" is moaning and bitching when it is about stuff that doesn't really have any effect on you, when it apparently wasn't intended for you and wouldn't have disrupted your very existence if you hadn't felt it was necessary to moan and bitch about it.

I don't agree. Not everything has to have an effect on you for you to be "entitled" to an opinion on it. Maybe I'd like my country to give more foreign aid or provide (more) catastrophe relief? It doesn't directly affect me in the slightest whether my government drills a well in Africa or erects a field hospital in Haiti or not - but I sure as sure have the right to say what I want on it.

And on this DLC I think it's every prospective consumers right to voice whether they like it or not, if they want to buy it or not, even state that they think it's the silliest DLC they ever heard off. People do not have the right to insult other users or the devs (and saying: "OMG, this DLC is wack!" is not insulting the devs, in this context), flaming or trolling. It's right there in the Rules (see especially #3 & #4) of the forum. What kind of forum would this be if you couldn't complain, voice concern, criticize or be negative? You can't seriously mean that you can only say negative things if you first buy a producet, and then don't like it? As long as a user does not lash out, cuss, troll or throw about hyperbole - I couldn't care less about him/her being negative. Just as I don't care about extravagant optimism and jubilant endorsement. It's all par for the course of a discussion forum. As long as the debate itself is kept level - and civil! - I'm fine.

What I don't like is seeing people being told that their concerns is "moaning and bitching". A few posts are, for sure, but the blanket labelling of any dissent as "butthurts" and "bitchers" is detrimental to any kind of good discussion climate. Just as labelling positivism as "fanboyism!!". Everyone doesn't have the same taste, but we Paradoxians shouldn't need call fellow Paradoxians names for them not agreeing with ones own.

 

[Leon_Aditzu]

Mid-game= world war Aztecs vs Mongols

 

[IJustWantPatch]

This is the best thing. I don't usually post, but I love this. Day one purchase for me. I really am looking forward to this, and I love the art assets in the screen shots there. I gleefully rub my hands in delight imagining the bevy of events that will come with this strange horde! It's strange that many posters are playing the part of board of directors here. I suppose it's not entirely beyond belief to be rather attached to 'their' company and want to speak about what they feel would be worth or not worth the developers time (Hopefully all involved realize it's optional), but being part of the silent masses here, I am grinning ear to ear. Paradox, you continue to please!

And for what it's worth, imagine it's maybe being on the receiving end of some mysterious guiding force, perhaps some mysterious entity known only as the 'Prawn Star' that has driven them on an ahistorical rampage across the terrible oceans in the name of pretty borders and repainting the world.

Back to lurking.

 

[Dakk]

Well, if we want to be technical about it, alien invasions of Earth are impossible for a lot better reasons than Aztec invasions of Spain (the logistics, for instance, are worse by several orders of magnitude and there is no possible resource Earth has that cannot be gotten from a much closer location). You could get seaborne Mesoamericans with absolutely ridiculous amounts of good luck (equivalent to dozens of kamikazes or Glorious Revolutions), because technically the resources are there for them to become seafaring; getting over the cold, hard facts of the ludicrousness of interstellar invasion is a lot harder no matter what imaginary technology is dreamed up.

I believe the "ludicrousness of interstellar invasion" as you/we consider it, can't be seen as any more ludicrous than the thought of putting men on Moon must have been to feudal Europe? The "cold and hard facts on interstellar travel" are only based on our current understanding

I'd like to reference Clarke's third law:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

When the aliens come here using a mass effect relay, it'll look like magic

Oh, and I totally agree with your second paragraph. It's a joke scenario - fantasy, to be sure - with a very obvious tongue-in-cheek attitude. If one accept that premise, then it's all good fun.

 

[StephenT]

It's not just because of eurocentrism, an aztec invasion in europe would have been completely impossible for countless real reasons, like:

lack of the necessary naval technology
Not if they learned it from the Vinland Norse colonists, which is what this alternative history scenario assumes.

lack of knowledge of the existance of Europe
Not if they learned it from the Vinland Norse colonists, which is what this alternative history scenario assumes.

ocean currents that would never allow them to reach the european shores
The Gulf Stream leads directly from the Gulf of Mexico to Western Europe.
Your point here is the diametric opposite of being correct.

very low population compared to Europe
No: in 1300 the population of the Americas was equal or higher than that of Europe. Mexico alone had 20 million people when Cortes arrived - compared to England with 2 million.

backwards military tactics and weapons, etc.
Not if they learned them from the Vinland Norse colonists, which is what this alternative history scenario assumes.

And finally, the point you didn't mention - the real-world Aztecs would have been horribly vulnerable to Old World diseases... but not if they picked up immunity from the Vinland Norse colonists, 300 years before this scenario starts. I assume that after AD 1000 there were deadly epidemics sweeping the Americas caused by Viking germs, but by 1350 or whenever, the American population has recovered to its pre-plague levels and is now immune to European diseases.

The only really unrealistic factor is that a post-Norse settlement, post-plague Mesoamerican civilisation would still call itself "the Aztecs" instead of something else. But the general form of its civilisation wouldn't be unrecognisable: the Aztecs derived their culture from people like the Olmecs and Mayans just like mediaeval Europe was inspired by Rome.

In short; this is certainly an alternative history scenario. But it doesn't need wildly implausible assumptions like aliens or time travel to make it work: just a Vinland colony that lasts longer and was larger than happened in our own world.

 

[krzychon]

come on guys from PI
there is still so many things that need to be improved in this game and you go with this
no thanks
this DLC is not for me

 

[Orinsul]

He said it's subconcious. It's a pretty good explanation why people are so extraordinarily upset over it. Although I wouldn't call it racist, I do think it's part of this Eurocentric attitude that any threat against European civilization is preposterous and insulting. That any other civilization is less worthwhile and not really worth the trouble.

That's the reason why many of the critics say they would rather have seen Aliens then Aztecs. They could imagine Aliens being a threat to glorious European civilization, but Aztecs? Nooo, WE won that one! How could their pea-sized brains ever develop the technology?

People would prefer aliens or fairies or other fantasy stuff over this as they come with their justifications and explanations, they change the setting without just breaking it.
The fun of any ahistorical situation comes from its plausibility, the fun of CK2 comes from that same ahistoric plausibility. The Aztec invasion breaks it entirely, while magic or aliens wouldnt, as aliens arent something from history distorted into a monstrous caricature and given unexplained technology and etc that really mean it has nothing to do with aztecs at all.
If the Aztecs were using magic and that had been made clear in the DD, then probably there wouldnt have been a problem, as the use of magic or aliens would have given the situation plausibility by removing it entirely from reality, but the pretence that its alternative history? That its an if-things-had-gone otherwise, removes any chance of the idea actually being fun. If they had magic theyd make sense, if they had aliens technology [which is really just another way of saying magic anyway] theyd make sense, and so by making sense would fit into a story without breaking it with nonsense.

I get the point that it really doesnt matter, its just a lame joke or a misguided attempt to cool. But the argument that anyone who disagrees with this 'joke' being amusing is doing so out of prejudice is mental and offensive and is coming up far to often in this thread. Racists couldnt find this offensive anyway as their de-fault the defenders and therefore the good guys valiantly holding back the barbarian invasion of bloodthirsty savages so theyd probably like it.
But thats not really the point. Which is, insulting or attempting to discredit anyone who disagrees with you may the current norm in politics but it shouldnt be in this forum, this is a forum after all so its a place for discussions.

For an ahistory situation to be interesting it has to be plausible and if implausible then it has to be backed up by something world-changing, generally the interference of aliens, magic or time travellers work brilliantly for that. But the implausible without the fantastic to justify it isnt interesting and thats why the majority response to this has been one of contempt as neither those who enjoy ahistory, fantasy or history see it as worth while.

Not that it matters, as has been said before, the DLC was finished before the announcement was ever made so theres no point in arguing against it unless you have a time machine and if you did theyd be damn better uses for it. Its already happened.
Kicking up a fuss over this, boycotting or throwing insults wont stop this DLC from being made, as its already been made, but it might stop future DLCs being made, and theyll probably actually be quite cool if Paradox doesnt get scared off from making them.
And I for one would like Paradox to be willing to try fun things in the future not hold back for fear out teacup storms.