Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics announced!

[Ozymandias15]

Not sure if this has been answered already (there are way too many posts to skim through), but when mentioning "monastic orders", are we talking about the military orders such as the Teutonic, Livonian, Templar and Hospitaller Orders? Or are we talking about the monk and hermit communities such as the Carthusians and Celestines?

 

[TheDungen]

Not sure if this has been answered already (there are way too many posts to skim through), but when mentioning "monastic orders", are we talking about the military orders such as the Teutonic, Livonian, Templar and Hospitaller Orders? Or are we talking about the monk and hermit communities such as the Carthusians and Celestines?

My guess would be primarily the latter.

what specifically? my summery of the scene I posted, or my claim that it's one of the more sane scenes in that arc?

I admit I left out a lot of the needed context for that summery to make sense. Really everything in JoJo makes perfect sense in context, even including that time that Dio became a velociraptor, it's just that that context is the entire rest of the series prior to the point you're reading/watching. Except for Steel Ball Run, which takes place in a alternate universe and for the longest time wasn't even confirmed to be part of the JoJo franchise.

but as for whether or not the later scenes significantly escalate the madness... I'll let you judge:

Spoiler: more JoJo scenes

sadly this one has no subs, but it's the only video of this scene I could find...

and finally a compilation of our hero's running gag/trick: predicting his opponent's actions:

and all that's still just from the second arc(Battle Tendency), latter ones continue to escalate, especially with the introduction of Stands in the third arc(Stardust Crusaders).

I'll take your word for it I don't think my sanity could take any more of that stuff.

Whether you're religious or not, where in the Christian mythos does it say that Satan wants to destroy the human race? I'm asking this with genuine curiosity, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

More on topic, don't they usually post a price with these announcements? I know they seem to of posted this one a bit earlier than usual, so maybe that's why, but can we get an ETA on when the price will be announced?

Destroy or rule. The bible specifies that man replaces the angels and gods favourites and that when god commands the angels to bow before man sataniel will not do it believing himself to be superior to man and equal to god. Note that the idea that lucifer, the devil, and Sataniel (the fallen angel) is one and the same being is a much later thing. I think it's from Milton's Paradise lost.

The modern age lust of rule violations did a good job in changing the narrative. It's the privilege which comes with our freedom of thought.
Back then, there was none of freedom of thought. People were quite embedded in the standard belief, or cosmos of thought.
If you backed out you would be ousted, punished or worse.
So if there was any satanism, real, serious and without Hollywood dramatization, it had to be done most secretly. I think the idea to do so was a wish to get supernatural powers by a service to the devil or getting rich, because according to faith, the devil was master of earthly things. But devil worshippers had to face a loss of their soul in the netherworld, and to prepare for a good judgement after death was most important for any medieval mind. So whoever did decide to join the evil side, must have undergone a dramatic separation from society, like "someone who has nothing left to lose", an outcast maybe who feels already condemned to hell by previous offenses, the leader of a gang of murderers perhaps. Such a person can't expect solidarity with normal society any more. And society was as far away from diversity as you could possibly imagine. There was no philosophing except in debates among monk scholars and even they had to watch their tongue, lest they be accused of heresy. All had to take place within the borders of the Bible as a rule book.
Those who came up as sects or mystic prophets over the centuries never claimed to be satanists or pagan, their point was they were the true observers of Christian faith and the big church was erroneous! Like grassroot reformers. Of course Rome could not accept this. Luther, Calvin and the reformation triggered by them in early 16th century could have ended like all the others before, if they weren't too strong to suppress at the start...
--
Today you can grow an interest in sects, demons, spiritism, whatever - and you are not punished by 'normal' people, maybe they will think you are crazy, that's all. We should keep on our minds it was completely different a thousand years ago.

satan is chained in the pit, he is not the master of the material world, god is all powerful, his will is done on earth as it is in heaven. Suggesting that the power of satan could even touch the world was heresy in the middle ages. Any suggestion that there was such a thing as witchcraft (even accusing someone else of it) was heresy. SUch accusations were instead usually phrased as "this persons claims to practice magic". Granted that didn't stop people from believing but it wasn't until later when the church doctrine had changed that things like the witch hunts happened.

 

[Cetric]

satan is chained in the pit, he is not the master of the material world, god is all powerful, his will is done on earth as it is in heaven. Suggesting that the power of satan could even touch the world was heresy in the middle ages. Any suggestion that there was such a thing as witchcraft (even accusing someone else of it) was heresy. SUch accusations were instead usually phrased as "this persons claims to practice magic". Granted that didn't stop people from believing but it wasn't until later when the church doctrine had changed that things like the witch hunts happened.

Sorry, you are wrong.
I am no Bible thumber nor do I want to start a theologic discourse here, let the monks in CK2 do that, but don't you remember that scene when the devil is tempting Jesus by taking him up a mountain and presenting him all the scenery around and promising him he would give him power over all this if he worshipped him (the devil)? This is where the belief is based upon that earthly things are under power of evil.
Matthew 1;12-13 and Luke 4;1-13 the third of four seduction attempts mentioned. << Once more the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, along with their splendor. 9He told Jesus,j “I will give you all these things if you will bow down and worship me!” Then Jesus told him, “Go away,k Satan! Because it is written, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” So the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to him.>>
--
The other separation of spirituality (good side) and all the rest is seen in the other scene, where Jesus talks about money (Luke 20:25): <<And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.>>
--
As these are Bible quotes, it is impossible to interpret them as 'heretic'.
By the way, I find this picture ('Temptation of Christ' by Juan de Flandes, 1460-1519) funny because the devil while tempting Jesus is dressed like a monk (!):

 

[Cetric]

Not sure if this has been answered already (there are way too many posts to skim through), but when mentioning "monastic orders", are we talking about the military orders such as the Teutonic, Livonian, Templar and Hospitaller Orders? Or are we talking about the monk and hermit communities such as the Carthusians and Celestines?

I see the military orders already implemented as those mercenary armies which you can hire by investing 'piety' and who will definitely not fight against opponents of the same faith, but against heretics and the infidel (muslims) of course.

 

[Gamengervi]

Destroy or rule. The bible specifies that man replaces the angels and gods favourites and that when god commands the angels to bow before man sataniel will not do it believing himself to be superior to man and equal to god. Note that the idea that lucifer, the devil, and Sataniel (the fallen angel) is one and the same being is a much later thing. I think it's from Milton's Paradise lost.

Paradise Lost was fiction. And I'm not saying that in a "Oh, the Bible is just fiction" sort of way. I mean that it was actually and undisputedly written as fiction. It was a thesis presenting Milton's own personal political and theological views — especially in relation to Restoration-era England — written in the form of an epic and shouldn't be considered Christian 'canon' even by the most die-hard theists; in other words, it was completely allegorical.

A simple passage from the Bible defending your claim will more than suffice for me.

 

[Cetric]

Found a nice source for a presentation of medieval spirituality, beliefs and so forth, so to say a roadmap of medieval thinking: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/medieval-political/
In there an interesting chapter about Augustine's 'The City of God' which was most influential on medieval minds:

<<Two cities, the city of God and the earthly city, are distinguished by two loves, love of God and (misdirected) love of self, and by two destinies, heaven and hell. Augustine's most famous contribution to theology was the doctrine of predestination. God has decreed from all eternity that to some he will give the grace (special help) needed to attain eternal salvation, while the rest of mankind (the majority) will go to eternal damnation. Salvation requires the grace of “final perseverance”, i.e. the grace of being in friendship with God at the moment of death. Some who live well for most of their lives may fall away at the very end. Thus we cannot tell for sure who is predestined to salvation. Since the city of God consists of those predestined to salvation, we cannot be sure of its membership. The city of God is not identical with the Church, since not all members of the Church will be saved. The earthly city is not identical with any particular state, since some members of a state may be predestined to salvation. A particular state may include citizens of both cities.>>

 

[TheDungen]

Sorry, you are wrong.
I am no Bible thumber nor do I want to start a theologic discourse here, let the monks in CK2 do that, but don't you remember that scene when the devil is tempting Jesus by taking him up a mountain and presenting him all the scenery around and promising him he would give him power over all this if he worshipped him (the devil)? This is where the belief is based upon that earthly things are under power of evil.
Matthew 1;12-13 and Luke 4;1-13 the third of four seduction attempts mentioned. << Once more the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, along with their splendor. 9He told Jesus,j “I will give you all these things if you will bow down and worship me!” Then Jesus told him, “Go away,k Satan! Because it is written, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” So the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to him.>>
--
The other separation of spirituality (good side) and all the rest is seen in the other scene, where Jesus talks about money (Luke 20:25): <<And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.>>
--
As these are Bible quotes, it is impossible to interpret them as 'heretic'.
By the way, I find this picture ('Temptation of Christ' by Juan de Flandes, 1460-1519) funny because the devil while tempting Jesus is dressed like a monk (!):

The devil may tempt but you won't find him having any actual power in the bible, he was basically offering Christ what was already Christ's. The devil is never in all the bible shown to be able to perform any kind of miracles/magic.

Paradise Lost was fiction. And I'm not saying that in a "Oh, the Bible is just fiction" sort of way. I mean that it was actually and undisputedly written as fiction. It was a thesis presenting Milton's own personal political and theological views — especially in relation to Restoration-era England — written in the form of an epic and shouldn't be considered Christian 'canon' even by the most die-hard theists; in other words, it was completely allegorical.

That's my point.So much of common perception on what the bible says on these things are actually based on people like Milton. The devil has no big part in the bible he mostly just shows up to mislead people. If you're interested then he figures most heavily in revelations. I won't find you any quotes reading that book gives me a headache (Also my bible is in Swedish).

 

[GregtheNinja]

I'm imagining possibilities for an Assassin's Creed mod.

 

[Cetric]

Continuation from my post: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ystics-announced.986031/page-10#post-22169549
(10) Let there be Councils (Concilium) where all major existing and acknowleged orders send delegations to for discussing theological matters just like "is this earthly life delivered to the power of evil or does God protect us here?", not more often than once per every 50 years or when the Pope sees fit. Your dynasty, if it has scholars planted in any of the religious orders (or even your own foundation), can appoint them for participating there, where their minds will hit upon the ones of other envoys in discussion of holy stuff. The game then will simulate disputing based on character traits of the 'combatants', maybe with interaction options for you as what to answer to certain dilemma questions by your envoy(s). The outcome of every Council will determine the ranking of the orders in the eyes of the Catholic world for the time until the next Council is held. If your dynasty members in service of an order helped win or else did perform remarkably, some of the prestige harvested for the order will return home to your dynasty head as well, together with recognition by the Pope and your local bishops. (11) Same Councils provide pretty formidable opportunities to battle other orders or opponents you have in competing orders, not by weapons, but by fighting them rhetorically and logically and this could well end with the humiliation of an adversary dispute attendee getting ridiculed or ousted, so he withdraws into privacy and is an opponent no more (same goes for your envoys if they succumb). Needless to say this expands or diminishes your influence on both the order you are member of as well as it influences the official Catholic doctrine canon (in a way like the law in your realm is changed over time by your ruler or the advisory board) for the next 50+ years. (12) If you happen to build great monasteries for the religious order your dynasty is aligned to, they may offer you after 2-3 generations of perfect happy relations a privileged burial ground in that important monastery, adding in the future a constant flow of prestige to your dynasty and steady esteem by clergy. [Think of King Carlos V. and his relation with the Hieronymites, for whom he built the monastery Saint Lorenzo de El Escorial, also his tomb)]

 

[TheDungen]

I'm imagining possibilities for an Assassin's Creed mod.

I fully support that initiative. My criticism of Assassin's creed stuff is only limited to in game content, I would love to see mods do it.

 

[Slavicist]

CKII goes Indiana Jones?

 

[alfian]

Theocracies playable?

 

[TheAtreides84]

Here I'm hoping for fleshed out Cathars, with consolamentum, celibate and endura suicide.

 

[neutrondecay]

The bible specifies that man replaces the angels and gods favourites and that when god commands the angels to bow before man sataniel will not do it believing himself to be superior to man and equal to god

Do you have chapter and verse for that? Because my dimly-recalled theology degree says there's no canonical source for that claim, or even for the specific name 'Satanael' (or 'Sataniel', to use your spelling).

nd

 

[TheDungen]

Do you have chapter and verse for that? Because my dimly-recalled theology degree says there's no canonical source for that claim, or even for the specific name 'Satanael' (or 'Sataniel', to use your spelling).

nd

You are quite correct on further reading that is as I stated later Milton not the bible, inf act from what I gather in the bible the devil is not really the grand adversary of god at all but a mere demon who tries to tempt christ in the desert. Not sure he shows up at all in the old testament and he has a very minor role in the bible altogether.

He's later identified as being one with any number of other beings by the church and picks up aspects of them.

 

[pillullis]

I like what they've done with the game. Thankfully PDX gave us interesting, new mechanics instead of boring Theocracies.

 

[Orion Winterfire]

Sorry, you are wrong.
I am no Bible thumber nor do I want to start a theologic discourse here, let the monks in CK2 do that, but don't you remember that scene when the devil is tempting Jesus by taking him up a mountain and presenting him all the scenery around and promising him he would give him power over all this if he worshipped him (the devil)? This is where the belief is based upon that earthly things are under power of evil.
Matthew 1;12-13 and Luke 4;1-13 the third of four seduction attempts mentioned. << Once more the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, along with their splendor. 9He told Jesus,j “I will give you all these things if you will bow down and worship me!” Then Jesus told him, “Go away,k Satan! Because it is written, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’” So the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to him.>>
--
The other separation of spirituality (good side) and all the rest is seen in the other scene, where Jesus talks about money (Luke 20:25): <<And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's.>>
--
As these are Bible quotes, it is impossible to interpret them as 'heretic'.
By the way, I find this picture ('Temptation of Christ' by Juan de Flandes, 1460-1519) funny because the devil while tempting Jesus is dressed like a monk (!):

Jesus also said "turn the other cheek" *cough*crusades*cough

 

[Cetric]

Jesus also said "turn the other cheek" *cough*crusades*cough

You can't make the original source responsible for what is later done with the content.
There are a lot of changes over time done by 'church fathers' and influential scholars. The militarization which you refer to as sheer contrast to the original idea of total pacifism (although Jesus used physical violence to drive out the merchants from the temple court) have the idea of a 'Miles Christianus' as fundament, as early as in apostle Paul's writings and then preparing more grounds by Augustine, bishop of Hippo in fifth century AD. "It is obvious that peace is the end sought for by war", so "every man seeks peace by waging war."
The very act of physically turning the other cheek was questioned by Pope Urban II. See, how things are constantly changed under theology and there is always a justification handy?
https://books.google.de/books?id=GC...QAhWH7BQKHe1qDhgQ6AEIPzAH#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/doctrine/ecvowams.htm

 

[Orion Winterfire]

Yeppers, people have hidden evil behind holy books for all of history.

 

[Cetric]

Yeppers, people have hidden evil behind holy books for all of history.

Nope. Those so-called holy books are subject to later changes and/or interpretations and annotations which cause a discourse tradition. This tradition can become so strong it overshadows the original message. Theology is pretty aware of problems of mutation, that is why everyone tries to find the earliest scriptures possible, as they are assumed to be void of later intrusions.
A religion is a living thing (as long as it has followers) and there is a need to go with the times as well, because followers expect from their religion answers to questions created by their social situation. As life conditions in every era are changing, the clergy needs to adjust to those changes to maintain their relieving function. Of course it is also a door where 'evil' influences may come in and shape the religion in rather strange ways.