Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome - DevDiary 4: Patriarchs & Pentarchs

[Doomdark]

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but I was curious if the A-C gavelkind bug where sons of dead elder daughters take precedent over you own sons had been fixed?

Yes

 

[Comradebot]

Yes

Yaaaaaay. This bug killed any fun I was having in my Kingdom of Pommerania game. It just caused constant and annoying issues, but it was either it or yet another game with Elective (aka boring cheese mode) succession.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Ohhhh, one last thing! Can you please make it so that in 1.07 Occitan/Catalan characters don't always have black hair? There were blonde and brown-haired folk in the south of France you know.

Same as for Italians and Iberians in general. In the end most of the nobles from these peoples were of Germanic descent.

Being picky, also Greeks (as well as modern Turkish) had/have a substantial fraction of blondes and dark blondes.

The very word "blonde" comes from Latin, by the way.

 

[MylesSCP]

Yes

Awesome! Thanks for the answer.

 

[Sir Tornado]

Instead, there are a number of practically autonomous Patriarchs, though they remain in communion with the rest of the Orthodox Church. This is called autocephaly, and we now represent this in the game by making the Court Chaplain in Orthodox kingdoms a Patriarch who is the religious head of everyone in the kingdom. He has power over excommunication and divorce over all characters in his jurisdiction, though only the Ecumenical Patriarch can grant invasions. Autocephalous Patriarchs have to be bishops (rule a temple Holding), preventing them from marrying or inheriting titles.

A question regarding this... when you say Kingdom, you mean all Kingdoms or only the Independent ones? And will this apply to independent Dukes as well? Or, will the independent Dukes fall within the autocephaly of the de-jure kingdom they belong to? In this case what would happen if I were a Duke in Ireland who went Orthodox?

Also, another question, what map mode is selected for the screenshots? Based on the buttons in the right corner menu, the first seems to be terrain and second political, but it actually seems to be something entirely different... is this a new addition too?

And very impressed with the additions so far!

 

[Claudius8110]

I can't wait to purchase this DLC. Keep up the good work at Paradox.

 

[Doomdark]

A question regarding this... when you say Kingdom, you mean all Kingdoms or only the Independent ones? And will this apply to independent Dukes as well? Or, will the independent Dukes fall within the autocephaly of the de-jure kingdom they belong to? In this case what would happen if I were a Duke in Ireland who went Orthodox?

The religious head of an Orthodox character is determined by looking at, in order: De Jure Pentarch, De Jure Kingdom, De Jure Empire, De Facto Kingdom, De Facto Empire, Ecumenical Patriarch.

 

[DominusNovus]

First of all, the information revealed in this DD is fantastic. And I'm very happy to see that there will be african portraits. I have one question and one suggestion:

My question relates to the heresies. It seems that the Orthodox heresies will have their own patriarchs. Will Catholic heresies have any sort of head(s) of religion? It wouldn't seem fair that one branch's heresies get them, but the other's doesn't.

My suggestion is related to the Copts: While I know its a hard topic to research, I sincerely hope at least some of the provinces of egypt start off as Coptic. Its hard to know which areas were majority Coptic (though we know Cairo was a Muslim city) at the start of the game, but they were definitely a major part of the population. And, if I remember correctly, Muslim rulers get more tax from Christian provinces, so this would help out the economy of Egypt, which is fairly realistic.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

My suggestion is related to the Copts: While I know its a hard topic to research, I sincerely hope at least some of the provinces of egypt start off as Coptic. Its hard to know which areas were majority Coptic (though we know Cairo was a Muslim city) at the start of the game, but they were definitely a major part of the population. And, if I remember correctly, Muslim rulers get more tax from Christian provinces, so this would help out the economy of Egypt, which is fairly realistic.

I totally agree, and I'd be happy to help Paradox with this. Much of central and southern Egypt should be Coptic, and I mentioned in a previous post in this thread that some of the Levant should start as Nestorian.

 

[Sir Tornado]

First of all, the information revealed in this DD is fantastic. And I'm very happy to see that there will be african portraits. I have one question and one suggestion:

My question relates to the heresies. It seems that the Orthodox heresies will have their own patriarchs. Will Catholic heresies have any sort of head(s) of religion? It wouldn't seem fair that one branch's heresies get them, but the other's doesn't.

As I understood it, heresies aren't getting their own patriarch, rather one of the religions which was an Orthodox heresy in the game till now (Miaphysite) is being converted into a stand-alone religion of its own (with its own heresies) and that is getting the Patriarch of Alexandria (along with a Pentarchy of its own)

 

[tompalmer]

Hoping for a dev diary about modding

 

[Doomdark]

My question relates to the heresies. It seems that the Orthodox heresies will have their own patriarchs. Will Catholic heresies have any sort of head(s) of religion? It wouldn't seem fair that one branch's heresies get them, but the other's doesn't.

My suggestion is related to the Copts: While I know its a hard topic to research, I sincerely hope at least some of the provinces of egypt start off as Coptic. Its hard to know which areas were majority Coptic (though we know Cairo was a Muslim city) at the start of the game, but they were definitely a major part of the population. And, if I remember correctly, Muslim rulers get more tax from Christian provinces, so this would help out the economy of Egypt, which is fairly realistic.

More love for the Catholic heresies is definitely needed, but it's not planned for this DLC. As for the religion of Egyptian provinces, I agree. Will look into it.

 

[Doomdark]

As I understood it, heresies aren't getting their own patriarch, rather one of the religions which was an Orthodox heresy in the game till now (Miaphysite) is being converted into a stand-alone religion of its own (with its own heresies) and that is getting the Patriarch of Alexandria (along with a Pentarchy of its own)

The Orthodox heresies (except Iconoclasts and Bogomilists) do get their own head, complete, with title.

 

[Sir Tornado]

Thanks for the responses Doomsdark. By the way, what is the map mode that we see in the screenshots? Something new that will come up when you open religion menu for Orthodox players?

 

[Tomski]

I see a little problem here. The Georgian orthodox church was historically independent to the Byzantine Orthodox Church.

 

[Crepuscularity]

Are there any plans to handle struggles for autocephaly and church superiority between Orthodox realms?
E.g. at various times, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church was subservient to the Constantinople Patriarch.

Is this handled by just looking at the title level of the liege? I.e. if I'm a duke, I am subservient to the Patriarch, but if I am King or Emperor, I get my own Patriarch?
Would this mean Orthodox rulers get slightly more money than Catholics? And would it also lead to the ERE getting slightly less money(they no longer control the "Pope" of all of Orthodoxy)?

Additionally, are there any plans to detail other Orthodox states(particularly their tech levels) a bit more in this expansion?

 

[Sir Tornado]

I see a little problem here. The Georgian orthodox church was historically independent to the Byzantine Orthodox Church.

Depends on how reliable Wikipedia is here, but according to it:

In the 4th and 5th centuries, the Church of Kartli was strictly subordinate to the Apostolic See of Antioch: all bishops were consecrated in Antioch before being sent to Iberia.[7] Around 480, in a step towards autocephaly, the Patriarch of Antioch Peter the Fuller elevated the Bishop of Mtskheta to the rank of Catholicos of Kartli with the approval, or at the instigation, of the Byzantine emperor Zeno.[8] The Church remained subordinate to the Antioch Church; the Catholicos could appoint local bishops, but until the 740s, his own election had to be confirmed by the synod of the Church of Antioch, and even after the 8th century, annual payments were made to the Church of Antioch.[9]

In 1010, the Catholicos of Kartli was elevated to the honor of Patriarch. From then on, the premier hierarch of the Georgian Orthodox Church carried the official title of Catholicos-Patriarch of All Georgia.

So, basically it was an autocephaly at the start of the game...

 

[Federalist girl]

Very exciting dev diary. Just two weeks left...

They're not really related to Legacy of Rome, but maybe I can tell you a bit more about them.

Yeah, we'd love to hear more about the portrait DLC. For one thing -- is it coming out at the same time as LoR?

 

[Don_Quigleone]

What happens to Orthodoxy if all the pentarchs are eliminated? Particularly if there's no longer an orthodox Bishop of Constantinople?

 

[Voy]

I'm hyped because of this dev diary. Thank you for the great additions of realism.

Side note: With the "separate Christian-Coptic sphere for marriages and diplomacy" doesn't it make Georgian marriages within Byzantium less likely if they have this religion as S-H pointed out they should have?