Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon Announced

[Mentaberry]

Why not adding China in map? what's the difference with Tianxia mod? that mod adds siberia, phillppines, china, southeast, basically all of asia xD (including japan)

 

[TheDungen]

Hmm not sure why you mention Columbus discovering America. Especially since all I have mentioned is that Columbus was looking for a new route to Asia/China. Discovering America was an unintended side-effect especially considering his mind set with the smaller wrong Earth circumference.

And every 5 year old knows this so why do you keep repeating it. I KNOW THIS! EVERYONE KNOWS THIS! Most Pre schoolers know this! But whatever he set out looking for what he found was the americas, yes he never knew them to be but that's not really relevant.
The question is did he have more to go on when thinking the world was smaller than people in general thought it was than just some faulty mathematical model?

It's basically this:

Me: Maybee columbus had heard stories of land much closer to Europe in the west than Asia was suposed to be and that's why he assumed the projection war wrong and asia was closer.
You: No you see he thought the projection was wrong!
Me: Yeah I just said that.

The problem with history is that we can't be certain how much people knew a long time ago.

That's kind of my point

The only thing Norse knew of from their expedition were Greenland and Newfoundland and some of Canada coastline at the most. It is not like they "knew" of an entire land mass at least big as Africa somewhere between China and Europe.

Actually we don't know that, Vinland, were somewhere warm enough for there to be grapes, which certainly isn't Canada. And I already said they didn't know the size of the landmass but neither did the spanish until after Amerigo Vespuci, and actually even then it took them a very long time to figure out the exact for an size of the americas. I would hazard that we didnät know this stuff until at earliest the 18th century, perhaps the 19th even.

I am talking about "Saga of Erik the Red" and "Greenland Saga" by the way. The sad part was that the story was passed down through generation orally before being wrote down. So we can't use it as a historical reference. Nevertheless give them read anyway if nothing else to understand how little info has been passed via those saga. Heck both saga contradiction each other in some minor details such as number of settlement done by major expedition leaders and where.

I'm not however I'm talking archaeological evidence not so hand down story we know from archeological evidence that there were norse settlements on greenland unti the beginign of the small ice age. and that their timber came from north america. There are also three confirmed norse archeological sites in Canada proper but those are much older.
We have found basque arifacts in north america from the pre columbus era. True they could have been rought there by the vikings but we also know that the norse forbade Basque whalers to dock in their ports, hence we know the basque whaled of the coast of greenland and if they could not winter with the people of greenland where did they winter? Combined with the artifacts it is pretty clear tha they did winter in north america.

Hence America was never discovered because it was never lost, the revelation of how large and significant it was was a gradual thing.

 

[Tavior]

And every 5 year old knows this so why do you keep repeating it. I KNOW THIS! EVERYONE KNOWS THIS! Most Pre schoolers know this! But whatever he set out looking for what he found was the americas, yes he never knew them to be but that's not really relevant.
The question is did he have more to go on when thinking the world was smaller than people in general thought it was than just some faulty mathematical model?

It's basically this:

Me: Maybee columbus had heard stories of land much closer to Europe in the west than Asia was suposed to be and that's why he assumed the projection war wrong and asia was closer.
You: No you see he thought the projection was wrong!
Me: Yeah I just said that.

There is a difference between what you said and I said. You said that he heard of rumor of a land mass. Sure I don't care anymore about that. My point is that he thought Asia was closer than anyone else thought and worked on the presume there was a different route. It just happened to be the wrong one (need to go around South America for that and eventually much later panama canal).

That's kind of my point


Actually we don't know that, Vinland, were somewhere warm enough for there to be grapes, which certainly isn't Canada. And I already said they didn't know the size of the landmass but neither did the spanish until after Amerigo Vespuci, and actually even then it took them a very long time to figure out the exact for an size of the americas. I would hazard that we didnät know this stuff until at earliest the 18th century, perhaps the 19th even.

Newfoundland is most certainly warm enough in summer to have tree and grasses.... Maybe was Vinland or maybe not. This archaeology site is in the MOST north bit you can go and still be in Newfoundland.

You may have been thinking of more northern part of Canada than Newfoundland when you think of the cold. The picture below is a reconstruction but it shows you the climate is certainly warm enough in Newfoundland to fit Vinland description or a winter shelter. It doesn't hurt that they found smelter at this archaeology site with iron remain that is over thousand year old. Indian never really mastered iron smelter until much later after Europe colonization.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2612495/potential-viking-settlement-found-in-newfoundland/

I'm not however I'm talking archaeological evidence not so hand down story we know from archeological evidence that there were norse settlements on greenland unti the beginign of the small ice age. and that their timber came from north america. There are also three confirmed norse archeological sites in Canada proper but those are much older.
We have found basque arifacts in north america from the pre columbus era. True they could have been rought there by the vikings but we also know that the norse forbade Basque whalers to dock in their ports, hence we know the basque whaled of the coast of greenland and if they could not winter with the people of greenland where did they winter? Combined with the artifacts it is pretty clear tha they did winter in north america.

Hence America was never discovered because it was never lost, the revelation of how large and significant it was was a gradual thing.

Huh? I am not following you here. As far I can figure it out. We are mostly saying the same things? So why go over those again?

Also, it is really hard to follow you without proper punctuation. Not to be a grammar police or anything just saying.

 

[Thure]

First of all, The Americas DO have a place in this game. It's canon, it has been for awhile, and you have to accept that. Secondly, adding the Americas is a great way to make the game more fun, especially for those who don't like EU4. I don't think there will ever be a DLC for it, but when CKII gets completed this is the first Mod that should be created for it.

Sunset is an AHISTOPRICAL and OPTIONAL DLC. I don't want a world map based on this concept. The DLC is fun but shouldn't be a matter for how the world map should look like.

It would just end in Cherukee Kings of England or 'No Contact'. Both options would be annoying as hell. The first one would be way to ahistorical in any way and the second one would exactly be the reason why I don't want it. Why would there be a place on the map which has no contact with the other places? Why should I suffer from lags because they added a region which wasn't in contact with the rest of the map and didn't influence it? I only want the Old World in CK because that was the interconnected network during this era. From Europa, China, North Africa, India, Middle East etc.

Actually we don't know that, Vinland, were somewhere warm enough for there to be grapes, which certainly isn't Canada. And I already said they didn't know the size of the landmass but neither did the spanish until after Amerigo Vespuci, and actually even then it took them a very long time to figure out the exact for an size of the americas. I would hazard that we didnät know this stuff until at earliest the 18th century, perhaps the 19th even.

Medieval warm period

It was much warmer during this era than today. That was the reason why Iceland, Greenland and Newfoundland way way more warmer and prosperior than today.

 

[TheDungen]

Sunset is an AHISTOPRICAL and OPTIONAL DLC. I don't want a world map based on this concept. The DLC is fun but shouldn't be a matter for how the world map should look like.

It would just end in Cherukee Kings of England or 'No Contact'. Both options would be annoying as hell. The first one would be way to ahistorical in any way and the second one would exactly be the reason why I don't want it. Why would there be a place on the map which has no contact with the other places? Why should I suffer from lags because they added a region which wasn't in contact with the rest of the map and didn't influence it? I only want the Old World in CK because that was the interconnected network during this era. From Europa, China, North Africa, India, Middle East etc.

Who said anything about the Cherokee being able to cross? I suggested advanced civilisations (and not the aztecs since they are out of their timeframe). Teotihuacán was in some ways one of the most advanced civilisation on earth in it's time, if we can restore it (we can restore the roman emprie after all) then there is no reason they could not reach across the ocean. We know the atlantic was by no means an unsurmountable obstacle.
And I trust paradox could handle this well.
And even with no contact, does it matter? There are isntresting dynasties and civilisations to play there in their own right. Now I get that it's a long term goal, not a high priority but if they can get it in there I have no issue with it.

Medieval warm period

It was much warmer during this era than today. That was the reason why Iceland, Greenland and Newfoundland way way more warmer and prosperior than today.

The medieval warm period was just in Europe but nice try. Also no the medieval warm period was warmer than what came after but colder than the world is today. In fact the world is warmer now than it has been at any point in human civilisation.
https://xkcd.com/1732/

Also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland#Controversy_over_the_location_of_Vinland
If the scholars on the subject are uncertain then you should perhaps not go aroudn throwing about your opinion as fact.

There is a difference between what you said and I said. You said that he heard of rumor of a land mass. Sure I don't care anymore about that. My point is that he thought Asia was closer than anyone else thought and worked on the presume there was a different route. It just happened to be the wrong one (need to go around South America for that and eventually much later panama canal).

Except he was wrong, asia wasn't closer even without the americas blocking his path the journey would have been impossible. Remember his ships were in pretty bad shape from just crossing the atlantic (though part of that is sailing in the wrong place and the wrong season as I recall, but he couldn't know that).

Newfoundland is most certainly warm enough in summer to have tree and grasses.... Maybe was Vinland or maybe not. This archaeology site is in the MOST north bit you can go and still be in Newfoundland.

You may have been thinking of more northern part of Canada than Newfoundland when you think of the cold. The picture below is a reconstruction but it shows you the climate is certainly warm enough in Newfoundland to fit Vinland description or a winter shelter. It doesn't hurt that they found smelter at this archaeology site with iron remain that is over thousand year old. Indian never really mastered iron smelter until much later after Europe colonization.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2612495/potential-viking-settlement-found-in-newfoundland/

Trees and grasses isn't Wine. And there were several norse settlements in north america Vinland was one but there were also Helluland and Markland, which on the Vinland map is located further north than wineland (but south of greenland).

 

[Thure]

The medieval Warm Period was the North Atlantic. Not Europe. So it included the East Coast of America too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period#North_America

 

[TheDungen]

The medieval Warm Period was the North Atlantic. Not Europe. So it included the East Coast of America too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period#North_America

It's still a stretch to think that you could grow wine in coastal Canada. Pretty sure you can't today and today is warmer even in this region than the medieval warm period was.
"the warmest period of the last 2,000 years prior to the 20th century"

And like I said scholars are uncertain about the location of Vinland, so why are you certain?

And even if it was in Canada is it relevant? We didn't know the territorial extent of the americas until much much later. So does Columbus count? Does Amerigo Vespucci? Or do we have to have a satellite picture to fulfill your criteria of having discovered the americas?

The big question is, with norse settlements on greenland from the tenth century to the 13th century (atleast), and possibly basque whalers wintering in canada... why didn't European disease spread like a wildfire before the Spanish landed?

 

[Achiles]

Any news on an ETA for Jade Dragon?

 

[Tavior]

Except he was wrong, asia wasn't closer even without the americas blocking his path the journey would have been impossible. Remember his ships were in pretty bad shape from just crossing the atlantic (though part of that is sailing in the wrong place and the wrong season as I recall, but he couldn't know that).

Trees and grasses isn't Wine. And there were several norse settlements in north america Vinland was one but there were also Helluland and Markland, which on the Vinland map is located further north than wineland (but south of greenland).

Now this conversation is starting to sound like a broken record. Also, you are disagree with each of my own posts while posting replies...

I don't meant to be rude but you have not really contribute that much to the discussion.

I never said Columbus was right. I can't emphasize this and you seem to keep missing this part of my argument. He thought Earth was at least smaller and only had Asia/Europe/Africa. He thought the distance between Europe and Asia was 3,700 kilometer of sea. While the true figure was closer to 20,000 kilometer which is a freaking HUGE error margin off by 5 time! I can't really emphasize that he got the math wrong and thought there was nothing but ocean between Europe and Asia.

The problem is that boat of 15th century had huge difficult in overcome a such long journey for 3,700 kilometer, nevermind 20,000 kilometer journey, so Columbus had lot of skepticism to overcome. Not to mention Portugal at this time just opened the South Africa route to Asia.

While you argued for Columbus knowing of an "unexplored land mass somewhere from Norse Explorers" here. Not to mention other Europe Navigators at this time knew that a long journey westward was unfeasible which is why no one tried before Columbus did.

it's possible Columbus may have heard of a landmass much closer than India was supposed to be and that's why he concluded that the projections must be wrong and India closer than the astronomers of his time claimed.

I never said grass and tree was "wine". I only said that where ever Vikings build winter shelter. It was definitely warm enough to have plant and what not. Certainly not ideal for wine but seeing I know next to none about wine growing I will not comment anymore on this.

 

[TheDungen]

Now this conversation is starting to sound like a broken record. Also, you are disagree with each of my own posts while posting replies...

I don't meant to be rude but you have not really contribute that much to the discussion.

I never said Columbus was right. I can't emphasize this and you seem to keep missing this part of my argument. He thought Earth was at least smaller and only had Asia/Europe/Africa. He thought the distance between Europe and Asia was 3,700 kilometer of sea. While the true figure was closer to 20,000 kilometer which is a freaking HUGE error margin off by 5 time! I can't really emphasize that he got the math wrong and thought there was nothing but ocean between Europe and Asia.

Yeah... as I have previously said we know everyone knows this so why do you keep repeating elementary school facts?

The problem is that boat of 15th century had huge difficult in overcome a such long journey for 3,700 kilometer, nevermind 20,000 kilometer journey, so Columbus had lot of skepticism to overcome. Not to mention Portugal at this time just opened the South Africa route to Asia.

Again nothing here that every schoolkid doesn't know.

I never said grass and tree was "wine". I only said that where ever Vikings build winter shelter. It was definitely warm enough to have plant and what not. Certainly not ideal for wine but seeing I know next to none about wine growing I will not comment anymore on this.

But Vinland means Wine land, a land where grapes grow!

While you argued for Columbus knowing of an "unexplored land mass somewhere from Norse Explorers" here. Not to mention other Europe Navigators at this time knew that a long journey westward was unfeasible which is why no one tried before Columbus did..

No I did not. I suggested he may have heard rumours of a landmass (I did not say unexplored no more than I said new which you claimed in a previous posts, please stop putting words in my mouth) from BASQUE whalers not from norse explorers. And my reason is exactly that since everyone who knew basic math knew the world was larger than that just sailing west because the world might be smaller and the math might be wrong is a really really stupid move, hence why I suggested he may have heard rumors that some landmass (which to him would mean asia) was much closer than those mathematical models predicted. And Yeah I'm sounding like a broken record because it was all there in my first post if you bothered to read it before giving me a load of nonsense replies which have nothing to do with what I said.
At this point it's becoming obvious you haven't even read my posts before disliking them so I wish you a good day.

 

[TheDungen]

Any news on an ETA for Jade Dragon?

Rumor has it at 20th of September.

 

[Thure]

But Vinland means Wine land, a land where grapes grow!

Actually... this is up to debate. It could also mean 'Meadow land'. The Wine land theory just started in the 11th century by Adam of Bremen who translated Vinlandum with Vinum. The problem is: We don't know which 'vin' is the right one.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vín#Old_Norse
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vin#Old_Norse

 

[TheDungen]

Actually... this is up to debate. It could also mean 'Meadow land'. The Wine land theory just started in the 11th century by Adam of Bremen who translated Vinlandum with Vinum. The problem is: We don't know which 'vin' is the right one.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vín#Old_Norse
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vin#Old_Norse

Huh... I did not know that, thank you Thure.

 

[Timjames]

Sunset is an AHISTOPRICAL and OPTIONAL DLC. I don't want a world map based on this concept. The DLC is fun but shouldn't be a matter for how the world map should look like.

It would just end in Cherukee Kings of England or 'No Contact'. Both options would be annoying as hell. The first one would be way to ahistorical in any way and the second one would exactly be the reason why I don't want it. Why would there be a place on the map which has no contact with the other places? Why should I suffer from lags because they added a region which wasn't in contact with the rest of the map and didn't influence it? I only want the Old World in CK because that was the interconnected network during this era. From Europa, China, North Africa, India, Middle East etc.

There WAS contact between the old world and the new world during this period. The Vikings even set up a colony in the New World. It wouldn't be Cherokee Kings of England, it would be Norse Kings of Canada.

You just hate fun and have a narrow vision.

 

[Thure]

There WAS contact between the old world and the new world during this period. The Vikings even set up a colony in the New World. It wouldn't be Cherokee Kings of England, it would be Norse Kings of Canada.

You just hate fun and have a narrow vision.

I doN't hate fun. But I doN't see a place in CK2 for America. Again... There was Norse settlement. Not colonies in the modern sense. And it was very very limited and only on some small places. And the contact between the Norse and the Native American wasn't enough to justify whole America on the map. Pre-Columbian America could basically be an own game. After circa 1100 there was NO way to get contact to America and there was no contact anymore. After the end of the Medieval Warm Period traveling was as much as impossible.

 

[Achiles]

I noticed in the latest dev diary that it looked like tibet had been filled in and a new desert had been added in northern Arabia. is there a dev diary that goes into detail of the various changes to the map?

 

[Ksiendzu]

I noticed in the latest dev diary that it looked like tibet had been filled in and a new desert had been added in northern Arabia. is there a dev diary that goes into detail of the various changes to the map?

No, but you can read this thread and find many informations:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/things-confirmed-on-stream.1040996/

 

[TheDungen]

I doN't hate fun. But I doN't see a place in CK2 for America. Again... There was Norse settlement. Not colonies in the modern sense. And it was very very limited and only on some small places. And the contact between the Norse and the Native American wasn't enough to justify whole America on the map. Pre-Columbian America could basically be an own game. After circa 1100 there was NO way to get contact to America and there was no contact anymore. After the end of the Medieval Warm Period traveling was as much as impossible.

Again why do region specific games if you can fit it into crusader kings? Especially when there is some limited interactions. Also think I saw a quote a while back where paradox said they wouldn't do games like that any more.
And the greenland has norse colonies until after Columbus "discovers" america.

 

[Huanglukuzhu]

Rumor has it at 20th of September.

Waah, my birthday!

 

[TheDungen]

Waah, my birthday!

Well it's unlikely that exact date will stand even if the person who leaked it knew what he was talking about.