Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 3 - Laws

[Doomdark]

Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

• Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
• Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
• Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
• Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
• Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
• Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
• Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.





Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead

 

[Doomdark]

Woohoo, reading time.

Edit:
Very interesting. Are the succession laws moddable? (I know from all the discussion there are many, many more possbilities).
I like the division of demesne laws versus kingdom laws. The fixed duchies and kingdoms make sense I guess, but I wonder about the exact implications of that.

Also, is the child's portrait a place holder? It's more or less the CK version.

The succession laws are only partially moddable. You can change the requirements, but not how they actually work. The child portrait is a placeholder, yes.

 

[Doomdark]

Is one of the icons in the top bar "Tyranny"?

The topbar icons are all placeholders, and represent Piety, Prestige, Gold and... something else.

 

[Doomdark]

In CKII, does primogeniture mean "salic primogeniture" thereby excluding semi-salic primogeniture?

If yes, that means the end of marrying a powerful heiress (like Eleanor of Aquitaine) to secure a higher title for your son. In my opinion, that would be a loss to the dynastic game dynamics. It will also dimish the diplomatic value of having daughters, and may put a lid on the discussion of whether engagements (if included in CKII) will be of any value beyond cementing a friendship through family ties.

Semi-Salic = Cognatic

Are the CKII succession laws divided into sub-laws?

No

 

[Doomdark]

Sweet, this looks like a massive improvement over the first game.

How easy will it be to change succession laws ? Will there be consequences ? or will it be more like CK1 where you could change them at will with little impact ?

It will be relatively easy to change the succession laws, though the exact requirements are not yet decided. However, you risk alienating the heir under the current law (it might even give them a reason to declare war.) The central choice, though, is between the pros and cons of the various laws.

 

[Doomdark]

I like the flexibility in this system. Yet the possibility of female inheiritance does raise the family question. In CK1 children always belong their fathers dynasty. That pretty much mean the end of every dynasty ruled by a woman.

I suggest that children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers. At least in the cases where the fathers title is lower than the mothers.

That is the way it works in CKII.

 

[Doomdark]

Nice.

Ohh and as far as I know cognatic and semi-salic isn't the same. Cognatic succession implies that females can inheirit. While semi-salic means that they can only do so, if there are no male heirs. So semi-salic law is cognatic, but cognatic law could be gender neutral as well.

Yes, but cognatic as it is used in CKII is not "absolute cognatic", but semi-salic. The word "Salic" is not appropriate to other areas of the world.

As for elective law could this be limited to people within the same dynasty as the previous ruler? As far as I know that restriction is far from uncommon. It would also allow a player to choose an elective law without risking a random game over.

Well, no... I think the risk makes it more interesting. It's not necessarily game over, however; you will still keep your other titles. (I.e, your other titles will default to Primogeniture if another dynasty wins the election.)

 

[Doomdark]

Question, as I've had this problem in DV:

If the Primogeniture-heir of a County/Duchy/Kingdom is already a Magistrate/Doge in a Republic, will the County/Duchy/Kingdom become part of the Republic?

It depends on the relative levels of his titles. If a "duke" level Doge inherits a kingdom, he will become a King and the republic will end. Otherwise, the FoG will remain republican.

 

[Doomdark]

Since Doomdark seems to be answering questions, I'll ask directly... if a liege lord overrides the Pope's choice, will this affect relations with the Curia, potentially leading to the offending lord being placed under interdict or excommunicated? If the offending lord is the Holy Roman Emperor, could we potentially see an escalating conflict between him and the Pope? Most importantly of all: would a powerful lay lord be able to appoint an influential clerical character as Antipope if such a struggle with the reigning Pope were to break out?

It is not yet time to talk about this, but we have ambitions along those lines.

 

[Doomdark]

Does "Turkish" means the most powerful son would seize the throne?

Yes, but all brothers will get a claim on his titles and might declare war in the succession crisis.

And about "children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers", what if the father is a 4th or 5th son of a duke and is landless and the mother is a count? Which family would those childrens be in?

If they belong to their mother's dynasty, what would hapen if their uncles(heirs to the duchy) all died without an heir and leaving their father as the heir? Would one kid "switch" to father's dynasty, be disqualified to inherit the duchy or they can while being in mother's dynasty(which leads to game over even with a bunch of male heirs)?

The game would not end in that case, but the dynasty would indeed change. Kind of a special case though.

 

[Doomdark]

So I take it there will be no place for the Scandinavian rota system? I.e. when there are kingdoms a, b, c and d in one kingroup, king of a dies, his oldest brother the king of b becomes king, c becomes b, d becomes c, and the next guy (another brother or son) d. This is the way succession happened in Rus, and in the Norse cities of Ireland.

Yes, but not in Scandinavia proper. To be honest, it is just a nightmare for everyone involved. So, no, that system will not be supported.

 

[Doomdark]

So in an elective monarchy, what determines the potential successors that the king and the dukes will nominate? I imagine the king will usually choose one of his own sons. But is there any rule about who the dukes can nominate? Will they ever nominate themselves? What makes a potential candidate for the throne "king-worthy?"

The dukes and the sons of the king are the valid candidates.

 

[Doomdark]

Thanks for the response!

So, speaking hypothetically, say King Harold of England is married to the sister of Earls Edwin and Morcar (ducal tier nobles)-- when he dies will they be more likely to vote for his son by their sister than his sons from a previous marriage? Or are they just as likely to put themselves forward as candidates?

Well, if they were players you would have to ask them. The AI will mostly consider its personal opinion of the candidates, but of course also potential political gains.

 

[Doomdark]

I like the sound of this very much. What sort of political gains are we talking about?

It gives prestige to have a large and powerful dynasty, but in this case that would not happen if they voted for his sons. So they would probably be better of voting for themselves. However, the nominee would of course like those who vote for him, etc.

 

[Doomdark]

AWESOME. Cant say more. And cant wait until this game is out.

The only thing that already bores me are the portraits so far, all the guys i saw so far look rather boring and similar. We need bigger noses.;-)

There is only one "guy" at the moment, with some different hair styles.

 

[Doomdark]

Hmmm that sure sounds like a nice thing

If my king dies, and his son loses the election, does he get a claim on the king title? Do other elective candidates get claims on the title? The HRE had a couple of wars over disputed elections, AFAIK...

Not automatically, but that will happen if there is a succession crisis.

 

[Doomdark]

One problem with Gavelkind in CKI was that the distribution of titles among heirs was completely random and the map ended up looking like a fruit salad. IMO, the titles inherited should rather tend to form contiguous areas.

Will the technical workings of Gavelkind be adjusted for CKII?

Yes, none of the code is reused from CK at all.

 

[Doomdark]

Doomie, you surely know that this kind of action could produce a negative response from the Pope, depending on when and where we're talking about. Can we hope there will be a bit of gameplay associated with attempts to override the Papal choice?

Yes, obviously.

 

[King]

I'm sorry but I'm gravely dissapointed. Without an option for absolute cognatic I can't play the game. Sorry, good bye and good luck everyone! I hope you enjoy it!



I'm canceling my Paradox account now as there is absolutely no prospect for me to enjoy the game. ((edit: as it turns out there is no unenroll in the profile settings, so if an Admin could please simply ban me from the forums I would appreciate it! Thank you!))

The customer is always right.

 

[Doomdark]

Say I'm the count of Bergen (in Norway), and I've sworn aliegiance to the king of sweden. Who are the electors?
How about for an independant duke?
And how is the elective process? Automatic (support the strongest?), or select an candidate?

Each vassal duke gets a vote, as does the current king. You nominate a candidate beforehand.