Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 14 - Plots

Crusader Kings II - Dev Diary 14 - Plots

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

DukeWilleo1630

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Yep, talk to them, imprison them, or have them killed. Your choice.
One thing that I hope is a bit different in CK2 than Rome is tyranny. I felt that in Rome, it was much too hard to imprison or execute/banish anyone because the negatives gained from tyranny were far too punitive. If we look at it historically, imprisoning, executing, or banishing people usually didn't lead to too much loyalty loss or revolt risk unless the person was much loved, or you did it to craploads of people. In Rome, trying to execute just 1 person would give you a lot of revolt risk. I hope in CK2 this is different. Because, if the King discovers a plot that is dastardly enough, I don't think he should take a tyranny hit to kill the plotters. Also, executing foreigners captured in war shouldn't give tyranny.
 

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One thing that I hope is a bit different in CK2 than Rome is tyranny. I felt that in Rome, it was much too hard to imprison or execute/banish anyone because the negatives gained from tyranny were far too punitive. If we look at it historically, imprisoning, executing, or banishing people usually didn't lead to too much loyalty loss or revolt risk unless the person was much loved, or you did it to craploads of people. In Rome, trying to execute just 1 person would give you a lot of revolt risk. I hope in CK2 this is different. Because, if the King discovers a plot that is dastardly enough, I don't think he should take a tyranny hit to kill the plotters. Also, executing foreigners captured in war shouldn't give tyranny.
Doomdark mentions that imprisoning plotters with sufficient evidence (as in, I presume, knowing his Ambition) incurs no Tyranny.
 

Nick B II

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Huh, Louis I of England? Invited, elected, whatever. Elective Law means the vassals want to pick the next King because the current King is a newt. The rest is left to the imagination, may be a formal assembly of the Peers of the realm or a cabal of plotters pushing a candidate to the throne.
King John wasn't dead, so this wasn't a change in inheritance law. So it's a completely different capital P Plot. Usurpation works nicely.

It'll be interesting to see how the game deals with the end of this particular plat. When King John died everyone pledged allegiance to his 9-year-old son, "King Louis I" acknowledged as a King of England in no English-language source I have ever encountered, and said so himself in the treaty formally ending his rule.

In fact that result shows the problem with the Elective Law plot. Changing the inheritance laws means screwing an entire dynasty, not just one guy. The English Barons were willing to screw King John, but not his son Henry III.

It's just not very appropriate to the period.

Nick
 

Nick B II

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One thing that I hope is a bit different in CK2 than Rome is tyranny. I felt that in Rome, it was much too hard to imprison or execute/banish anyone because the negatives gained from tyranny were far too punitive. If we look at it historically, imprisoning, executing, or banishing people usually didn't lead to too much loyalty loss or revolt risk unless the person was much loved, or you did it to craploads of people. In Rome, trying to execute just 1 person would give you a lot of revolt risk. I hope in CK2 this is different. Because, if the King discovers a plot that is dastardly enough, I don't think he should take a tyranny hit to kill the plotters. Also, executing foreigners captured in war shouldn't give tyranny.
All executions should give Tyranny. Anyone important enough to appear in-game is a High Noble, and actual execution of high nobles was virtually unheard of in this period. Even people who lost Civil Wars tended to lose their lands, but not their heads. No less a tyrant then Longshanks actually gave rebels their land and titles back, if they'd pay a fine.

Imprisonment and Crusades are different matters entirely.

Nick
 

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King John wasn't dead, so this wasn't a change in inheritance law. So it's a completely different capital P Plot. Usurpation works nicely.

It'll be interesting to see how the game deals with the end of this particular plat. When King John died everyone pledged allegiance to his 9-year-old son, "King Louis I" acknowledged as a King of England in no English-language source I have ever encountered, and said so himself in the treaty formally ending his rule.

In fact that result shows the problem with the Elective Law plot. Changing the inheritance laws means screwing an entire dynasty, not just one guy. The English Barons were willing to screw King John, but not his son Henry III.
They were prepared to screw Henry III as well, but it was argued that Prince Henry had been too young to have partaken to his father's crimes and misdemeanors. When future Henry III acknowledged Magna Carta the whole issue became moot, and the prospect of a French adult king compared to an English minor King the latter became more alluring.

But the fact is, they invited Louis of France in. Which means, implicitely, that they chose to oust the Plantagenets and replace them with the Capetians. Elective Succession in action, unanimously.

Had Prince Henry been an adult, Louis I would have reigned supreme. He would have faced the same fate as Prince Edward of Lancaster after Tewkesbury.
 
Last edited:

Grubnessul

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Well, yes. The backers of some plots, like the Elective Monarchy one, will be allies in the war if the King refuses to submit. There are also other mechanics to ensure that civil wars consist of whole groups of vassals revolting.
Unless we decide to backstab our fellow plotters?
 

Alastor

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I wonder what the ambitions for a top tier character would be, I mean he can't become a marshal, a steward, a chancellor or a spymaster right? Makes me wonder what being a paragon of virtue translates to as well.
Oh and I like what I hear about these plots, I hope there are many-many possible plots in the final game.
 

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]But the fact is, they invited Louis of France in. Which means, implicitely, that they chose to oust the Plantagenets and replace them with the Capetians. Elective Succession in action, unanimously.
This isn't how Elective Succession works in-game though. Elective succession is the strongest vassal becoming king, not inviting a foreign king to rule.
 

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What nature can these plots have, we heard than in can be military in nature or personal. Can it also be religious in nature for instance? Could I try to set up a heretic religion and try to gain support of like minded people, before trying to install it?

And how modable will it be? Thanks.
 

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Huh, Louis I of England? Invited, elected, whatever. Elective Law means the vassals want to pick the next King because the current King is a newt. The rest is left to the imagination, may be a formal assembly of the Peers of the realm or a cabal of plotters pushing a candidate to the throne.
But CK's Elective Law doesn't mean the vassals get to choose whomever they want when they want. They get to choose only amongst themselves and the king's heir at the king's death. The Peers of the Realm making a new king out of a foreign noble because they don't like their current king, or because the king died without eligible heirs isn't covered under Elective Law, and may hopefully just be a plot of itself.

The changed requirements make more sense for vassals demanding Elective Law, as under realms where vassals were largely autonomous, the king was just the guy who solved disputes and defended his vassals in exchange for troops and upkeep for the troops.
 

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But CK's Elective Law doesn't mean the vassals get to choose whomever they want when they want. They get to choose only amongst themselves and the king's heir at the king's death. The Peers of the Realm making a new king out of a foreign noble because they don't like their current king, or because the king died without eligible heirs isn't covered under Elective Law, and may hopefully just be a plot of itself.

The changed requirements make more sense for vassals demanding Elective Law, as under realms where vassals were largely autonomous, the king was just the guy who solved disputes and defended his vassals in exchange for troops and upkeep for the troops.
Isn't what the noblemen wanted to do with Henry III first as a minor and then keeping it on even after he reached majority, then when adult Henry III was seen as rampant as John was, and that Simon de Montfort's clique wanted to transform England into a Crowned Republic with a grining, but tied Henry III at its head?

As I understand Elective Law in CK2, it's anything from a formal election like in the HRE, to "our cabal want to get you out and place someone else in, and we want to check him to make sure he doesn't act like an ass as you did". It's all a matter of your imagination.

Plus, we assume that every vassal and his father has this plot available by default. Maybe this is available only with a certain set of conditions in place.
 

Bob Ilyani

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This looks great- I have the feeling plots are going to be incredibly dynamic and entertaining additions to the game.
 

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But the basic scenario I outlined is accurate:
If your vassals can plot for Elective, and X Intrigue worth of them do, your law changes to Elective Law? And that you have no opportunity to tell them you're gonna fight them on this, keeping your law and starting a Civil War?

I can see how a modern person would think a plot like this made sense. But I can't think of a single example where this actually happened in the entire Middle Ages. Yeah some countries went to Elective Law, but that only happened in countries where they ran out of Princes. Everywhere else the vassals were happy to keep Crown Authority low, and leave the ruling dynasty in place.

Nick
France, Hugues Capet. They were still some Carolingian scions around.
 

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So it will be rather important to have not only an effective spy master, but a spy master who likes you enough not to betray you if you have scheming nobles under you? Excellent :D
 

Boshko

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I don't know enough to make any good judgments about the implementation but it looks like this is trying to remedy my biggest problem with CK I: the thinness of internal realm politics, so I'm at least provisionally very happy.
 

Nick B II

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Isn't what the noblemen wanted to do with Henry III first as a minor and then keeping it on even after he reached majority, then when adult Henry III was seen as rampant as John was, and that Simon de Montfort's clique wanted to transform England into a Crowned Republic with a grining, but tied Henry III at its head?

As I understand Elective Law in CK2, it's anything from a formal election like in the HRE, to "our cabal want to get you out and place someone else in, and we want to check him to make sure he doesn't act like an ass as you did". It's all a matter of your imagination.

Plus, we assume that every vassal and his father has this plot available by default. Maybe this is available only with a certain set of conditions in place.
Yeah, but from what we understand of Elective Law your cabal won't be able to replace a ruling King they don't like. They'll have to wait until he dies.

The problem with the Elective Law Plot is that it posits both a) a King so weak he can't force his vassals to grin and bear it when he says "My son is Crown Prince," and b) strong enough those vassals don't just use the Usurpation Plot to can his ass.

Nick
 

InnocentIII

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Sounds like fun stuff. Thinking about an AAR makes me wonder how accessible other character's plots will be in the save file for those of us not really trying to "win". You can always save/load, I suppose.