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Tegus

Deluxe programmer
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Sep 28, 2009
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  • Divine Wind
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  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
War, what is it good for?

In Crusader Kings II, hopefully you'll gain some titles and in the best of worlds, imprison or behead your enemy. In order to declare a war you'll first need a valid Casus Belli against your enemy(a CB held by a vassal or courtier will of course do as well). You cannot attack the vassals of someone, so if you want one of their titles you have to attack their liege. Also, unlike Europa Universalis III and Victoria II, once a war has started it cannot be extended by adding further wargoals or CBs.

Instead, each CB has three options scripted: Demand Defeat, White Peace and Reversed Demands. As an example, let's look at the Claim CB. This CB lets you attack people holding titles you have claims on. If the war is going well, you can demand that your enemy give his title to you and as a bonus you'll gain a small amount of prestige. If you fail to achieve your goal, you could sue for a white peace instead. You'd want to avoid this though, since signing a white peace gives you a prestige hit(you didn't achieve your goals, after all). White peace is still preferable to the reversed demand however, since if your enemy enforces this, you will both lose the claim and get a huge prestige hit.

CrusaderKingsII_War_2.png

While most wars will end in a peace treaty, this is not the only way they can end. Some CBs have effects that trigger when the leader of an alliance dies. An example of this is the Invasion CB, which is currently used by William against Harold. When the leader of the attacking alliance dies, the war immediately ends. Be careful when going to war with your old king...

Another part of wars is the warscore. Like our other games, you'll gain warscore by occupying enemy holdings(the capital is worth more, vassal holdings are worth less) and winning battles(in CK2, they are worth a lot of warscore). We've also added a warscore effect if the contested title is left with no controller change for some time. After three years(currently), warscore is slowly added to the person controlling the area. This means that it's now possible to win a war as a) a defender in a war by just defending your title or b) attacking someone, sieging down the title you want and then just stand still and defend those provinces. By the way, if you manage to capture and imprison the enemy leader(for example, in a battle), this automatically counts as 100% warscore. We've also removed all limits to warscore, so whoever reaches >=100% first by any combination of occupation, battles, controlling the correct territory and imprisonment automatically wins the war.

CrusaderKingsII_War_1.png

Last but not least we have tagged some CBs to be "hostile against others", for example the Invasion CB. The effect of this is that two parties contesting the same title will fight each other even if they are not at war. It might be better as William to wait a bit until Harald and Harold both have worn down their armies...

'Till next time!
Fredrik Zetterman
Programmer, Paradox Interactive
 
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I found out the HARD way that you may get imprisoned if you try to backstab your liege and declare war and then sign a peace to return to the fold..
 
What's the difference between an Invasion CB and a Claim title X CB?

Invasion always targets the top-tier title of an independent realm. When you demand peace using an Invasion CB, you will get all holdings which you currently occupy(along with the top-tier title). In the case of William, he could conquer only the south of England and replace the barons there with Normans, while the northern part would still be his vassals, but Saxon.

Invasion CBs are currently only granted by the Pope however.
 
We can't add multiple war goals? So if I want county X and county Y (and have a claim on both and both are in the same realm) I have to wage two separate wars?

It will depend on the type of CB you use. Currently a claim CB is for one claim only, and Invasion is for an entire country. We haven't yet decided how we'll handle multiple claims in wars.
 
Kinda wary about some of these terms, so you can only get what you aim for in the war's beginning?

Also, from the first screen, I haven't heard of this before but can you now play as a pagan? Or is that character Erik the Heathen a convert?

With the Invasion CB, you get what you have occupied when the peace is signed.

As for pagans, dev hax :)
 
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This begs a Papal interaction DD next time. Or a how to create CBs.

Also, regarding CBs. Please tell us we can work towards them and aren't forced to wait, for a once in a lifetime chance, to get such a CB land in our lap :(

No waiting required. Invasion CBs are granted by the Pope, Claim CBs are granted if you have claims.

There are also multiple "permanent" CBs which are given to you if their conditions are met. For example, you get an Independence CB on your liege if he is independent, you get a Religious CB on people of other religious groups, you get an Excommunication CB if you share the same religious head and your target is excommunicated and so on.
 
I see possibilities here for promoting limited warfare, if only one title can be claimed at a time, and you can only declare war on independent rulers, not vassals. I'm looking forward to how invasion CBs will work out, and if excommunication will be a free invasion CB for anyone of your faith.

So anything on religious enemies, i.e., can you declare war on your pagan neighbors any time you want and keep what you conquer?

At the time being, yes, but it's a bit too powerful at the moment so we will need to test some alternatives to balance it a bit.
 
Nice! So this can also form a drive to have a certain fellow in your court just for the sake of his CB's/claims?

Certainly. Note however, if you use the claim of someone else, they will get the title, not you. I think for most of those CBs you become their liege though(if the conquered title doesn't outrank your own)
 
Simply Awesome, i have very curious about Pope role.
I have two question:

1. So if i have conquered all the enemy, but in the last battle my leader being cought, they automatically won against me, or i have the possibility to negotiate in more profitable situation? The king is cought but his the country is healty and victorius, while the one of my enemy is occupied and in ashes.

2. Can i have more information about that?

Current implementation permits no negotiation if the alliance leader is captured. If he is killed however, the war will continue(unless scripted otherwise).

As for number 2, you will basically be able to fight everyone trying to get a hold of the same title. That means that if the King of Sweden, King of Denmark and King of Norway all declare war to take the crown of England, Swedish troops can siege Norwegian territory and fight Danish troops etc., even though none of those actions actually benefit them in their war against England.
 
What about low-level fighting between say a French count and a German count? As has been asked here, should the Count of Charolais have to take on the whole HRE to stake his claim on Macon, and hope that the Duke of Burgundy and the King of France will back him up?

No, only independant rulers or vassals within the same realm can declare war on each other.
 
According to the Devs there won't ever truly be an independent Duchy.

In some ways that makes a lot of sense. If a King of Norway tried to poach a nominally-independent Normandy from France a strong King of France would have intervened and nobody would have thought he was acting inappropriately. So the mandatory relationship with liege is an improvement over CK1, where rebellious vassals had an annoying tendency to be gobbled up by your neighbors and there was nothing you could do about it.

No, Normandy is independent. Possibly you are thinking of de jure Kingdoms? While Normandy is indeed part of France in that sense, it does not mean the Kind of France has any involvement in Normandy's wars.

Let me put this to layman's terms:

A) Only independent ruler can declare war on another independent ruler.

B) Independent ruler can't declare war on any vassal (only to another independent ruler as stated in A).

C) Vassal can declare war only to another vassal who is within the same realm.

D) Vassal can declare war to it's liege for independence but not to any other independent ruler nor any other vassal who is outside his own realm.

This is correct.

Also, if you really don't want to defend your vassals, you can simply concede defeat right away.
 
There's no inter-realm alliances. When you DoW the HRE emp with your claim on Mantua your war is with him, the Count of Mantua is not consulted. Since the war is over Mantua, holding it gives the attacker a lot of War Score, and since it's a low level title the Emperor might be willing to let it go easily, but if he really feels like it he can raise all the levies available to him and make his displeasure felt.
 
Does this apply to human players as well? So say that I'm the Count of Mantua and somebody DOWs the HRE over my title before occupying my province. Can the Emperor then make a peace that involves giving away my one province? Game over for me?

Yes.

1. Face huge Invasion.
2. Assassinate enemy ruler.
3. PROFIT!!!!
IMHO ruler's death should harm organisation etc. but not end war - through history people always had chain of command with orders of who will step in after general or ruler death in military campaign.

And throughout history there have been wars mostly driven by one man which ended with his death. Frederick Barbarossa and the Third Crusade springs to mind. As Tegus said, only some types of CB have this effect.
 
Here're the problems:

1) If you are playing a Duke and you get a claim in another realm it does you no good because you need your liege's permission to press it. Not only is it impossible for you to do this on your own, it's impossible for you to ask your liege for permission. That's just stupid, ahistoric, and un-fun.

2) If you are playing a vassal and you get DoWed you only get to defend yourself if your liege thinks it's worth the trouble. Again stupid, ahistoric and un-fun.

3) If you are playing an independent lord (or vassal whose King has randomly decided to press his claim) you will certainly have to fight every lord in your target Kingdom. Stupid, ahistoric, and un-fun.

Reading the DD does not make you an expert on the game, keep calm, stop over reacting, and think a bit more about what you are saying.

1) No, it does you plenty of good if you liege presses the claim. Nor has anyone said you cannot ask your liege.
2) So you would prefer it if you could just sweep in, siege and make peace with the targeted vassal and laugh at their ex-liege? Would you have fun playing as a King and having your vassals sniped away? No, I think not. It makes a lot more sense to have the liege in charge.
3) No, you have to fight their liege. For some odd reason he doesn't like you stealing his vassals.
 
It's an exact answer to his point. If a liege is DoWed over a claim on a vassal's land then clearly either the liege or the vassal has to be in charge of the war. If the liege is in charge then the vassal might find his lands given away by a lazy liege, but if the vassal is in charge it would lead to vassal sniping. I think the former is preferable.

I cannot confirm it will be a feature as it is not decided, but Nick was incorrect to take no reply as confirmation it wouldn't be in.
 
Well I hope that the AI just doesn't give up ones land without it even being occupied, I mean that would be quite stupid and even though the Kings armies are occupied elsewhere he should allow his vassal to fight until the vassals lands are conquered.

It would be stupid, yes.
 
Secondly, from a gameplay perspective, there might be a host of reasons why I would not wish to surrender. Maybe I have an army still active, maybe I can raise mercenaries, maybe my allies have armies en route, maybe I know that the enemy's capital is about to fall, etc, etc. The point is that if I'm to lose the game then it should be as a result of my judgement and my actions; not the capriciousness of the AI

As with all our games, you will not be able to refuse a peace offer when you are 100% occupied.