Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne - Dev Diary 2 - Kings, Queens and Murderers

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Daled

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The new titular titles feature leavs me concerned that the map will take on worse shapes than it already does.
Now every duke with 3-4 counties can fancy himself a king? The map will be covered with 100's of this little Kings. For the sake of a decent map I hope that the former liege of the wannabee king immediately gets claims on his titles so he can slap him around good.

This is another step away from historical plausability and into the realm of fantasy. And i still dont get why Paradox keeps taking this approach.

Why does this keeps coming up again and again? Have you never played as a vassal? You cannot create a title that is of equal or higher rank to the title of your liege and the devs have not said this was going to change.
 

Carmilla

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I don't know if this was asked and given answer already, but can we decide what the title of the new kingdoms/empires are? So that if I form one in Scandinavia I can use High Queen/High King instead of Empress/Emperor and the likes?
 

Orinsul

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Why does this keeps coming up again and again? Have you never played as a vassal? You cannot create a title that is of equal or higher rank to the title of your liege and the devs have not said this was going to change.

you'll probably need a donkey load of prestige, cash and piety too which the AI is generally rubbish at saving up.
 

Daled

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you'll probably need a donkey load of prestige, cash and piety too which the AI is generally rubbish at saving up.

It still does not matter, you simply cannot gain independence by creating a title, be it a titular or dejure one?
 

Orinsul

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It still does not matter, you simply cannot gain independence by creating a title, be it a titular or dejure one?

But the concern about the map ending up in lots of little kingdoms would be valid if it is cheap.
As independent duchies and independence faction revolts are a thing.
 

Damarrocarion

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It still does not matter, you simply cannot gain independence by creating a title, be it a titular or dejure one?

You can never gain independence this way. You can, however, break free from your liege if he is liege of someone else. So if you are a count and manage to form a duchy for yourself, you become vassal of the king. I assume same goes if you are duke under king who is vassal to emperor. You become a new kingdom under empire.
 

Vasious

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I am probably too late to ask but, can the game allow counties and duchies to existed that have no De jure Kingdom or empire?
So for the sake of example, there be no De jure England, Wales or Scotland nor Britannia and just have what forms form?
 

Daled

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But the concern about the map ending up in lots of little kingdoms would be valid if it is cheap.
As independent duchies and independence faction revolts are a thing.

And the problem of that is? What is the difference between having independent dukes and titular kings? After all, the name will be the same and the colour aswell. I simply do not see the problem.
 

Daled

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You can never gain independence this way. You can, however, break free from your liege if he is liege of someone else. So if you are a count and manage to form a duchy for yourself, you become vassal of the king. I assume same goes if you are duke under king who is vassal to emperor. You become a new kingdom under empire.

Yes you can, is that a problem?
 

Damarrocarion

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Yes you can, is that a problem?

uum.. no. You just asked a question above and I answered it. "It still does not matter, you simply cannot gain independence by creating a title, be it a titular or dejure one?"
 

Wolfmaster1979

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With the assassination button being removed, did they say anything about improving the current plot system for assassinating characters? Its current setup is complete sh*t for assassinating characters (imo). :ninja: :ninja:
 

outlawing2

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Basically, if an adventurer event pops you are now screwed and forced to fight him. Because seriously how often do we kill an adventurer with the plot? In my plays, I counted once. Once over more 20ish games.
 

Warial

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I am probably too late to ask but, can the game allow counties and duchies to existed that have no De jure Kingdom or empire?
So for the sake of example, there be no De jure England, Wales or Scotland nor Britannia and just have what forms form?
It was possible in earlier versions of the game, now it leads to crash. I would certainly love to have this feature back.
 

Kyle Lionheart

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In the early versions of CK2, there were 2(two) empires: HRE and ERE. That's it. You wanted an Empire? You needed to usurp or be elected for one of the two. And the De-Jure Empires map did have a lot of blanks, as is proper.

Then some started complaining that this was too limiting. Which it was, since this is a game about alternative history after all, not an history video.
There were proposals for exactly the kind of system that CM is doing now, which is IMHO a perfect compromise between history and gameplay. But, Paradox eventually decided it was easier to just slap a bunch of fantasy de-jure empires on the map, and let people create those. Plus for some mad reason they hard-coded it so that no blanks can exist in De-Jure maps, which is just sad and blocks modders from correcting the silliness :angry:

A real pity, and I'm glad they've finally reconsidered. I do really hope this also means the removal of the fantasy de-jure stuff, but I honestly doubt it.
 

theKing1988

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In the early versions of CK2, there were 2(two) empires: HRE and ERE. That's it. You wanted an Empire? You needed to usurp or be elected for one of the two. And the De-Jure Empires map did have a lot of blanks, as is proper.

Then some started complaining that this was too limiting. Which it was, since this is a game about alternative history after all, not an history video.
There were proposals for exactly the kind of system that CM is doing now, which is IMHO a perfect compromise between history and gameplay. But, Paradox eventually decided it was easier to just slap a bunch of fantasy de-jure empires on the map, and let people create those. Plus for some mad reason they hard-coded it so that no blanks can exist in De-Jure maps, which is just sad and blocks modders from correcting the silliness :angry:

A real pity, and I'm glad they've finally reconsidered. I do really hope this also means the removal of the fantasy de-jure stuff, but I honestly doubt it.

I think you may have misunderstood something. Modders can totally remove the de-jure Empires already. It's the Kingdoms that are untouchable. Every province have to be part of a Kingdom.
 

Rognvaldr19

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I don't see why people hate on all those empires that aren't the ERE or HRE because if you had a guy from Mali who managed to conquer all of Western Africa and North Africa, if he started calling himself the emperor of Mali, who's going to say otherwise? No one is the ultimate authority on who's an emperor and who's not.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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Ruwaard

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Why does this keeps coming up again and again? Have you never played as a vassal? You cannot create a title that is of equal or higher rank to the title of your liege and the devs have not said this was going to change.

I'm more concerned about de jure ducal vassals of de jure empires. Being allowed to create a de jure kingdom is one thing, though some of the core kingdoms of certain empires (ERE & HRE) are problematic too; but a custom titular kingdom, as a vassal, IMHO should be something different.
Certainly de jure vassals, those IMHO should need the permission of their liege (de jure & de facto).

I'm totally fine with independent dukes, once powerful enough seek a royal crown. It's only vassalized dukes I'm concerned about.
 

Heatth

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I don't see why people hate on all those empires that aren't the ERE or HRE because if you had a guy from Mali who managed to conquer all of Western Africa and North Africa, if he started calling himself the emperor of Mali, who's going to say otherwise? No one is the ultimate authority on who's an emperor and who's not.

The problem is not th ahistorical empires. It is the de jure ahistorical empires. Sure, no one would stop a sufficiently powerful guy to declaring himself emperor. But no one would particularly respect and automatically recognize the authority either.

For a more obvious example, imagine if an English king menage to conquer Scotland, Wales and declares himself emperor of Britannia. That make sense, right? Nothing wrong with that. But why should the Irish lords automatically recognize his authority over Ireland? Why should the be able to vote in British law and why should they be more willing to bend the knee to him? With the new system this issue becomes even more evident. You can form your own empires now but the de jure empires still have advantage, even though most of them are just as arbitrary and ahistorical.
 

PopehatXI

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The AI can do it too, but is much more restricted in doing it so it should be a rare occurrence when it happens.

That makes me very happy, don't want it happening too much, but just want it to be a possibility. Maybe you'd have to be ambitious and proud? I think it will be very interesting to find out these conditions