Crusader Kings 3 Dev Diary #51 - It’s Time to Duel

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grommile

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This is what the word 'language' is for, a convenient short had to refer to a group of mutually intelligible idiolects or dialects.
Might be better to say "a group of lects mutually intelligible with a common reference lect" – because I'm not convinced Geordie is any more mutually intelligible with AAVE than, say, Portguese is with Castilian Spanish :)
 
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Zhetone

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Why are people still talking about linguistics, it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Completely off-track and pointless.
 
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pengoyo

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Norwegian, Swedish and Danish languages are largely mutually intelligible, yet are not grouped together as one language. Often, the difference between language and dialect is what is elevated as a language by nationalistic ideals, and the point of this line of argument is that there is no inherent, absolute standard to what is "correct language".
As someone else already covered the details of this, I'll just deal with the main point you're making, as I do think it's valid. But just because there is no absolute standard to get everyone to agree what groupings should be a language doesn't mean the concept can't still be useful. It is like the species concept in this way, that mutual intelligibility does still leave some edge cases that can be debated, but it's better than nothing. And just because the world doesn't fit neatly into nice boxes doesn't mean there aren't patterns or trends in the mess.

To put it another way, colours also don't fit within nice boxes as they exist on a spectrum which is interpreted by people's perceptions (which often differ slightly). But as humans are bad with dealing with spectra and good with dealing with boxes, so it can still be useful to put colours in boxes as long as we are mindful of these limitations. Plus just reducing colours to only just a wavelength denies the part of colours that are a social construct, that being the associations that people add to various groupings of wavelengths. So in order for one to understand colours, one can't focus on the individual wavelengths, but must also look at how they are perceived by people (both individually and as a society).

Might be better to say "a group of lects mutually intelligible with a common reference lect" – because I'm not convinced Geordie is any more mutually intelligible with AAVE than, say, Portguese is with Castilian Spanish :)
Having a common standard doesn't exist for many minority languages, yet many of these are clearly languages. Though if you mean a common reference lect as something more abstract, like a representation of the sum of influences, then yeah I'd agree. But either way, I agree not all linguists use mutual intelligibility just as is, but often add extra qualifiers. But that is just largely refinement on the same principle.



While I enjoy a good linguistic debate, so thanks for that :) I agree this is getting off topic for this thread. So I will leave it here.

edit: grammar
 
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Viridianus

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Mutual intelligibility, you recognized English as valid grouping based on this principle.
While some of your points make sense, this is what undermines the whole premise of E-languages. Intelligibility is neither always mutual nor necessary (at least not for people who say that Chinese or Arabic or even Italian is a language) nor sufficient nor well-defined. So I take Chomsky with some grain of salt: namely, I doubt that his E-languages are even a useful concept.

That said, as some people pointed out, this discussion is no longer fruitfully related to this Dev Diary, and I suggest we move it elsewhere.
 
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G S Palmer

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I will challenge anyone else who brings up linguistics in this thread to a duel to the death.
 
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KomodoWaran

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In case it wasn't mentioned already:

I noticed in some of the screenshots that duelists were menacingly pointing their blunt weapon at their opponent's throat as if they were holding an edged weapon.

It would be great if the duel text generator could be adjusted to use more appropriate body parts for blunt weapons, like for example the head / temple.

Thanks and good luck.
 
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Viridianus

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I noticed in some of the screenshots that duelists were menacingly pointing their blunt weapon at their opponent's throat as if they were holding an edged weapon.
If you are hit into a throat with a blunt weapon your chances are not nice. Same with your temple.
 
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hypnos97

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Very cool! So much more in depth than the ck2 system and seems to be even more extensive than the AGOT mod duels, very exciting.

I hope the finished product won't be the two duelers doing the 'mum says it's my turn on the xbox' pose at eachother.
 

filcat

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[Apologies for interrupting with an unrelated post, though it will be brief, and contains only a mention. Either way if it is flagged to be deleted, the author will understand]

Looking for what the dev diary was about, checking for some dev responses, then stumbled upon a (concluded) debate on linguistics, now going to check how it started; but as soon as seeing given examples, as the subject was on linguistics, looked for if one would mention "it".

...and yes, north germanic language group was used as example, swedish, norwegian, aaand danish. Then, as the eyes jumped over words through the sentences, wondered if it had been used; yes, there it was:

And Danish, forget it, the Danes can't even understand each other!

Der er det, since 2006, never failed to make one laugh:D:D:D:D:D
 
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rjakjedi

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Single combat before battles should be an option. I get that you dont want too much going on during controlling armies but this was a big thing historically.
 
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halbort

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Single combat before battles should be an option. I get that you dont want too much going on during controlling armies but this was a big thing historically.

I think you are overestimating how important this was.
 
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G S Palmer

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I will challenge anyone else who brings up linguistics in this thread to a duel to the death.
[Apologies for interrupting with an unrelated post, though it will be brief, and contains only a mention. Either way if it is flagged to be deleted, the author will understand]

Looking for what the dev diary was about, checking for some dev responses, then stumbled upon a (concluded) debate on linguistics, now going to check how it started; but as soon as seeing given examples, as the subject was on linguistics, looked for if one would mention "it".

...and yes, north germanic language group was used as example, swedish, norwegian, aaand danish. Then, as the eyes jumped over words through the sentences, wondered if it had been used; yes, there it was:



Der er det, since 2006, never failed to make one laugh:D:D:D:D:D
Choose your time and weapon, knave.
 
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rjakjedi

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I think you are overestimating how important this was.
The Arabs used this a lot in their prelude to battle to demoralise their enemies during the Islamic Conquests. Although it is dramatised a lot in stories and films, it no doubt would of had a significant impact historically especially if it was the generals duelling each other and one was wounded or slain.