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WanderingKnight

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My wish is: that before CK2 would be much better if we get introduced to CK "expansion" (chose name yourself)! I woud rather see this game more improved with more scenarios and abilities than some fancy 3d game (that should be expected 100%) as CK2. Just thinking how they scrued up CivIV :(
 

Drachenfire

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In addition to my desire for female succession under cognatic and male preference primogeniture :rolleyes: , I was thinking on these ideas too:


1) When a ruler's child is born, the option to name him. We could be given a list from a drop down, and if not statisfied then we could type in a name.

2) Add moniker: For instance : Edward the Bold. Two ways I can see this happening: When a ruler dies we have the option to type in his moniker. 2) During the corse of game play, the style of game play determins what the moniker is and applies it at the ruler's death. Also, this would be in conjuntion with the computer's ability to determin how many rulers of the same name held the highest ranked crown, so that we can have roman numerals next to the name.
 

Damocles

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CK expansion/gameplay ideas

Greetings,

The other thread got me thinking, about things we could change that would take actual programming by the developers to do. Three things immediately stood out for me, in relevance to warfare:

1) The way AI used gold and armies. They could never go below negative, so they could just keep their troops indefinitely in the field and transport them anywhere. You shouldn't have been able to take a sea route unless you had the gold. By allowing the AI to go on like 900 gold naval trips for free, we got silly cases of Emirates in Norway or Ireland.

2) The way war movement was conducted. You should not have been able to move across any other realm, except your own home realm, without getting permission to do so. Otherwise, you'd have to declare war. This would have worked the same for Crusading. So instead of having 20 Christian armies make a beeline for Jerusalem, every time they passed into the territory of a neutral muslim (or vice versa) it should've been an automatic war. That way, the Crusader States of Outremer might actually have formed. Perhaps armies lead by characters with the 'Crusader' trait, could be immune to this when dealing with Orthodox or Catholic traits. This could have simply been done via the 'ask for military access' diplomatic ability, that could've been ported over, and the chances of acceptance could be how the personality traits stacked up, combined with diplomacy, like everything else. It should however , only last a single year.

However, I think in order to do the two ideas above, the developers would have to recognize that giving Armies the ability to strike anywhere at anytime (marching over any neutrals, free boat trips), they will need to withdraw from the somewhat arrogant assertion that all wars be equal, and that it is a game design issue to let the Muslims set up emirates in Ireland or Norway. This is untenable, and I hope after 2 years, considernig how widely villified and hated this aspect of CK is, would be corrected. It would put everyone on an equal footing anyways. The Christians would have to go via Anatolia much more, and so would the Muslims, just like they did historically. A 20,000 Muslim army shouldn't be able to walk across Byzantium, Hungary, half of Germany, and set up shop in Cologne, whereupon it'll never be touched.

3) Perhaps one of the most unfortunate missing function was the simple ability to defeat a rebelling vassal in an war and simple confirm them in their titles. Perhaps for a slight decrease in badboy. Or at the least, to no more gain. You should be able to confirm anyone whom you have a title over, so that you are not forced to annex or let them go free. 90% of 'civil wars' in this era, was simpy the overlord asserting his authority. Many times, a vassal would be brought into the fold and still rebel later. Guiscard dealt with this several times, as did most other rulers.


Errata:

I should also note that I have probably, the most heavily self-modded CK game of ALL time. I've tweaked many events, techs, spreads...I've even gone through and given each culture and province on the map a specific tech and power level based on what was historic, and I gave all the kingdoms their historical laws, instead of just Traditional Custom and Ecclesical Balance. (For instance, France is Feudal Contract/Monastic, HRE is Elective/Royal Supremacy and England is Royal Perogative/Ecclesical Balance.

Many Bishops were set to Church Supremacy too. I also heavily modified the Byzantium-Seljuk start (by giving claims to the Seljuks, and making Alp at war with most of the Anatolian vassals, and lowering piety to 0 from 25 for all involved, I made it so the vast majority of the time, the Seljuks would not stop until they had conquered their historical areas), and all castles start with a minimum of medium since they represent such huge areas.

So my priorities are mostly on stuff that isn't moddable.

EDIT: Oh, and it shouldn't be possible to create a vassal while at war. Too often the AI will conquer something, only to give it to somebody else, who is suddenly immune from the war. Frankly, I think all vassals should be at war with all vassals, whenever a war starts.
 
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Veldmaarschalk

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3) Perhaps one of the most unfortunate missing function was the simple ability to defeat a rebelling vassal in an war and simple confirm them in their titles. Perhaps for a slight decrease in badboy. Or at the least, to no more gain. You should be able to confirm anyone whom you have a title over, so that you are not forced to annex or let them go free. 90% of 'civil wars' in this era, was simpy the overlord asserting his authority. Many times, a vassal would be brought into the fold and still rebel later. Guiscard dealt with this several times, as did most other rulers.

There is a CK2 thread for this.

But I have one question on this function.

The only thing that stops you from claiming all titles and conquering the map are your badboypoints and the way they effect your vassals-loyalty. Now if defeating rebelling vassals reduces my badboy or let it stay the same, what would prevent me from claiming and conquering all ? (besides the prestige-cost of course)
 

Damocles

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You gain badboy points for claiming titles as well.

Regardless, when dealing with your own vassals, you shouldn't have to choose between letting them go free or annexing them. Especially, when historically, 90% of the time they were simply re-confirmed. I do not think it would even remotely unbalance the game. If anything, it would improve the balance by giving the player more options besides world conquest.

Furthermore, I think that most CK players tend to stay within a region and quit games after it becomes a world conquest affair (or when the mongols show up).
 

Veldmaarschalk

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Damocles said:
You gain badboy points for claiming titles as well.

Regardless, when dealing with your own vassals, you shouldn't have to choose between letting them go free or annexing them. Especially, when historically, 90% of the time they were simply re-confirmed. I do not think it would even remotely unbalance the game. If anything, it would improve the balance by giving the player more options besides world conquest.

Furthermore, I think that most CK players tend to stay within a region and quit games after it becomes a world conquest affair (or when the mongols show up).

IMHO it would unbalance the game, since there is nothing to prevent you from doing bad stuff. With your suggestion badboy doesn't have any effect at all, so no need to worry about my reputation.

The game is to easy already, not having to worry about your reputation makes it even more easier.
 

Damocles

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I don't see where you're coming from, Veld.

It's only looking for an option to re-confirm a vassal, instead of annexing them. Many families get ahistorically wiped out that way. It also keeps your domain from getting too big.

What bad stuff could be done with it? Your current options are only 'leave free' or 'annex'.

Perhaps if you confirmed someone, you would lose your claim on them? That would more than balance it out, IMO.
 

Veldmaarschalk

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Damocles said:
I don't see where you're coming from, Veld.

It's only looking for an option to re-confirm a vassal, instead of annexing them. Many families get ahistorically wiped out that way. It also keeps your domain from getting too big.

What bad stuff could be done with it? Your current options are only 'leave free' or 'annex'.

Perhaps if you confirmed someone, you would lose your claim on them? That would more than balance it out, IMO.

I come from Zutphen in the Netherlands, or isn't that what you mean ? :cool:

I'll try to explain it again. Currently one of the difficult aspects of the game is to keep your vassals loyal. Since if you don't keep them loyal, they start to rebel and you then either have to annex them or let them go. If you annex them, then your reputation gets worse, more vassals start to rebel and so on and so on. 'The spiral of death'.

If you then have your suggestion, I could crush my rebelling vassal but let him keep his title and he stays my vassal. And according to your suggestion that would either improve my reputation or let it stay the same.

I don't have a problem with force-vassalization, but it should give you badboy-points, not as much as annexing his land but still some increase. And it should cost you prestige.
 

Damocles

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That's precisely what I'm getting at.

There shouldn't be a spiral of inevitable death.

Furthermore, I can't see your badboy getting that bad unless you're playing world conquest mode.

So yes, I can see how world conquest players might use it, but I think defeating a vassal and reconfirming them, to have no change in BB, and to lose your claim on them is more than reasonable.

For another thing, the spiral of inevitable death is entirely ahistorical.

So while this might make things a /little/ easier for a few world conquerors, I think the vast majority of players would benefit from having an option between two extremes.
 

N Katsyev

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Damocles said:
That's precisely what I'm getting at.

There shouldn't be a spiral of inevitable death.

Furthermore, I can't see your badboy getting that bad unless you're playing world conquest mode.

So yes, I can see how world conquest players might use it, but I think defeating a vassal and reconfirming them, to have no change in BB, and to lose your claim on them is more than reasonable.

For another thing, the spiral of inevitable death is entirely ahistorical.

So while this might make things a /little/ easier for a few world conquerors, I think the vast majority of players would benefit from having an option between two extremes.

The spiral of death isn't irreversible. So long as your able to keep your superior titles it's actually not very difficult to re-vassalize the ones that broke away later. Sure it sucks to watch your Kingdom be reverted to your demesne, but you can very quickly build it right back again and it's better than re-annexing everybody.
 

Boblof

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I think that it would be a good idea to totally change the system of claims.
I personally think the inability of contolling ones vassals militarily is quite strange and means that you always have goofy looking borders and the in-game remedy of this is that lower tier AI states will automatically join your realm if you have a higher title in the area and have an average reputation.
this I think is compleatly ahistorical and I think that it would be better also from a gameplay point of view if you could take back provinces that you have claims on without any BB penalty by winnig a war and force the count or duke to simply swear loyalty to you. the only way of getting BB for pushing someone back into the heard should be if you actually take his titles and land. this would require that the way you gain claims should be harder and that you can't gain claims on king or duke titles other than by unsurping them or as a result of them breaking loose but that warfare over areas that you don't have any claims should be made possible but to a much higher BB price than conquoring a title in the game right now.
this would mean that a country would not be magically reunited after a devestating civil war just because a new regent sits on the throne and that you can't take out an entire kingdom in one war and that you can keep posessions outside your titles influense for generations whitout having to control it personally.
titles should give prestige and enable you to cut down on the number of vassals, not be a requisite for keeping your nation together IMHO.
 

ComradeOm

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It must be remembered that there were few, if any, absolute monarchs during this period. In many cases the King ruled only on the whims of his vassals. So removing the penalties for smacking the vassals to bring them back in line would not only affect gameplay but really be ahistorical. If a king got all high and mighty then he was the one that would be brought into line by rebellious vassals.
 

Boblof

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what I was saying is that there should be an extra option in peace nogotiations like "force to pledge allegence" that would basicly remove the kings claims on that individuals demense and vassals but would make him a part of the realm again, I find this far more historical than the extemes of CK where you either have a country totally exploading into a mess of small county size entities or have large duchys going independant that may be as much as 1/3 of the country just to rejoin 5 years later whithout the king having to do anything.
besides it would be in the kings own vassals intrest that they would have been put back into line and since the king have a claim on them it would be seen as fairly just, and then if he just crush the rebels armies and then forgives him without taking any land then i don't see why the other vassals would be upset.
 

Nick B II

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ComradeOm said:
It must be remembered that there were few, if any, absolute monarchs during this period. In many cases the King ruled only on the whims of his vassals. So removing the penalties for smacking the vassals to bring them back in line would not only affect gameplay but really be ahistorical. If a king got all high and mighty then he was the one that would be brought into line by rebellious vassals.
Force-vassalizing is essential for CK2. I agree there should be a BB hit, about the same as you get when you diplo-vassalize a country. But it shouldn't be a huge BB hit, and should certaintly be much much less than 1 BB per title seized.

Claims on eachother should also be automatically canceled as well.

Vassals may not like it if one of their fellow-vassals is publically humiliated. But they'd do the same thing to a rebelling Baron, and it's not like the King's actually increasing his power. He's just keeping it exactly where it was before.

Maybe there should be a BB hit for letting the vassal go independant. Not because you've actually been bad, but because all your other vassals smell your blood in the water. Note that this creates new, and more insidious BB spiral-of-death. One asshole goes indepandent 'cause reputation sucks. Now you can annex him (for mondo BB), let him go (for moderate BB), or re-vassalize him (for little BB). Any way you look at it your reputation drops, risking further rebellions (particularly if you re-vassalize the dumbass who hated your guts); causing more rebellions...

Makes holding an 50-vassal Empire together a bit tricky, don't it?

Nick
 

LlywelynII

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me said:
But as always, the patches have slowly fixed most of the truly major issues. I say, if only they would finally fix the military access, but really - if they take their time with a CK2, put in player-controlled combat and sieges, an internal ledger & bridefinder, a more balanced stat system (the renaissance didn't really happen because of rapidly accelerated Darwinism producing a race of supermen; mil currently does nothing), let people name and epithet their own children, score by the dynasty... they could MMORPG it and make a mint.

...​


What?

You've never quoted yourself before? :p
 

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Llywelyn said:
they could MMORPG it and make a mint.

Holy crap...that's actually a great idea.

Paradox, your next project should be World of Crusader Kings (WoCK :p).

I'm joking and yet very serious at the same time. This could definitely work.
 
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