Yeah but there was not so many who would do these crusades, especially if they were directed against other catholic christians.
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Originally posted by Sonny
After the Holy Land was lost to Christians the Popes declared a ton of minor crusades against the Christian enemies of the Chruch (i.e. whoever the Pope was pissed at).
But I hardly think they are among the "numbered" crusades.
No they weren't among the numbered crusades. Also not a lot of folks participated in them. They were just done in the crusading fashion where indulgences were earned for remssion of sins etc. for fighting agains whomever the Pope wanted kicked out of Italy/Sicily at time.
So even without a major crusade there was ample opportunity to fight against the Popes enemies (including other Popes).
So even without a major crusade there was ample opportunity to fight against the Popes enemies (including other Popes).
What if a nation was on Crusade and decided a little side excursion would be a bit more profitable (sacking of Constantinople anyone?). Would this incur some sort of "penalty" for not following through with the target (in this case regaining the Holy Lands)? Or would the Pope simply "look the other way" if the new target was of a rival to his power?
And only the ones in the Levant (except of course the fourth crusade which didn't reach the Levant). There were crusades in the eastern Baltic.
They really didn't play too much a part in history. They didn't even get out of Europe - or at least the French one didn't. Don't remember if any of the children from the German one got out of Europe.
You would hope that the Pope would be smart enough to recognize this, but he will be AI after all and may not be too smart.
Personally I think that a crusade should have certain criterias:
1. Must be approved by the pope.
2. Must be a major military venture (no 7 guys who decide to carve out a kingdom)
3. Must be against heathens.
In other words no child-crusades or something other shit.
1. Must be approved by the pope.
2. Must be a major military venture (no 7 guys who decide to carve out a kingdom)
3. Must be against heathens.
In other words no child-crusades or something other shit.
I agree with 1 and 2, but point 3 is a bit controversial. When the pope excommunicates some king, he can summon a crusade against him, and this excommunication sometimes had nothing to do with religious (christian/heathen) affairs, but with political struggles.
Marc
Agree.
1) of course, otherwise it is not a crusade (well, also could perhaps be the Byzantine Emperor). 2) Guess it depends on how many monarchs participate when a crusade is called. 3) Several political crusades were called by Popes to get the Germans out of Italy etc. Perhaps if you don't call them crusades then you would be correct. After awhile they were not crusades just the Pope fighting with someone.
Originally posted by Sonny
They really didn't play too much a part in history. They didn't even get out of Europe - or at least the French one didn't. Don't remember if any of the children from the German one got out of Europe.
They reached the Egyptian slavemarket
i think too that point 1-2 are correct but not 3.
IMHO, the impact in terms of piety bonus/penalty for taking/refusing the Cross should be reduced once the crusade goes against a catholic kingdom, or even an Orthodox one (mitigated). crusades against heretics should have the same bonus/penalty as those against heathens.
besides, the impact of a pope's calling a crusade should be reduced as we progress from the XIIth climax till the XIVth.
IMHO, the impact in terms of piety bonus/penalty for taking/refusing the Cross should be reduced once the crusade goes against a catholic kingdom, or even an Orthodox one (mitigated). crusades against heretics should have the same bonus/penalty as those against heathens.
besides, the impact of a pope's calling a crusade should be reduced as we progress from the XIIth climax till the XIVth.
Originally posted by Barkdreg
They reached the Egyptian slavemarket
LOL Very good point! Hmm, wonder if you can sell your captives in the slave markets if they don't come up with the ransom.
The target should be throughout the map. To just target the Holy Land would be very odd, as there were Crusades outside the Holy Land, just not always called 'Crusades.' Indeed, in 1066, parts of Europe were not Christian, so to not allow Crusades in that area would be unhistoric.
Originally posted by Dakar
I want crusades in Spain and a lot of them!
There should be constant crusading in Spain. Like other places though making treaties with the Moors might be necessary to ward off other Christain powers.
Remember, the convention of "numbering" Crusades was created by later historians who were trying to list the "major" excursions to the Holy Land. At the time, all Crusades were considered such and those participating granted Crusader privileges. Also keep in mind the Pope DID NOT necessarily have to approve a Crusade for it to be considered & numbered among the others by historians; examples are Emperor Frederick II's 6th Crusade and the controversial 4th Crusade vs. Byzantium, both of which the Pope discouraged and even threatened its members with excommunication.
There a few main classes of Crusades:
1. Holy Land/Middle East/North Africa vs. Muslims: This covers the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, & 8th Crusades, plus other ventures like Emperor Henry VI's German Crusade (1197), and arguably even the campaigns of the Kings of Outremer vs. their Muslim neighbors.
2. Northern Crusades vs. Heathen Slavs/Balts: These officially began with the Saxon "Wendish Crusade" (1147-1148) launched by Duke Henry the Lion of Saxony and Margrave Albert the Bear of Brandenburg, and also includes the campaigns of the Teutonic Order in Prussia, Livonia, etc., as well as the Danish & Swedish expeditions against the Wends, Balts, and Finns (yes, even the Christians).
3. Spanish Reconquista: Self-explanatory. Like the Saxons and Scandinavians in the North, the Spaniards argued that they should be allowed to fulfill their vows against their non-Christian neighbors; why make the trek to the Holy Land when there are heathens next door? Of course the Pope heartily agreed. During each major Crusade, northern Europeans on their way to the Levant would stop by and help the Spaniards save some souls with the sword.
4. Crusades against Heretic/Schismatic Christians: Here's the real zinger; any Christians the Pope or others considered heretics and/or excommunicated were fair game. This covers the Albigensian Crusades, the 4th Crusade vs. Byzantium, the Hussite Crusades, and even the downright wicked and disgusting genocidal crusade called by the Pope to exterminate every last man and boy of the great House of Hohenstaufen, an event which plunged Germany & Italy into an anarchy that would take 600 years to recover from.
There a few main classes of Crusades:
1. Holy Land/Middle East/North Africa vs. Muslims: This covers the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, & 8th Crusades, plus other ventures like Emperor Henry VI's German Crusade (1197), and arguably even the campaigns of the Kings of Outremer vs. their Muslim neighbors.
2. Northern Crusades vs. Heathen Slavs/Balts: These officially began with the Saxon "Wendish Crusade" (1147-1148) launched by Duke Henry the Lion of Saxony and Margrave Albert the Bear of Brandenburg, and also includes the campaigns of the Teutonic Order in Prussia, Livonia, etc., as well as the Danish & Swedish expeditions against the Wends, Balts, and Finns (yes, even the Christians).
3. Spanish Reconquista: Self-explanatory. Like the Saxons and Scandinavians in the North, the Spaniards argued that they should be allowed to fulfill their vows against their non-Christian neighbors; why make the trek to the Holy Land when there are heathens next door? Of course the Pope heartily agreed. During each major Crusade, northern Europeans on their way to the Levant would stop by and help the Spaniards save some souls with the sword.
4. Crusades against Heretic/Schismatic Christians: Here's the real zinger; any Christians the Pope or others considered heretics and/or excommunicated were fair game. This covers the Albigensian Crusades, the 4th Crusade vs. Byzantium, the Hussite Crusades, and even the downright wicked and disgusting genocidal crusade called by the Pope to exterminate every last man and boy of the great House of Hohenstaufen, an event which plunged Germany & Italy into an anarchy that would take 600 years to recover from.