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Slynx

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I have some concerns about criminal branch offices and especially when combined with Gospel of the Masses.

1st - the pop requirements for open slots are a bit weird. you need at least 25 to gain a 1st slot. which leadto almost no offices during the early game (only capitols have enough pops, and new planed don't generate enough trade to compensate the cost of opening)

2nd - when you reach mid game there are almost always a lot of crime decreasing pops. so even with 4 buildings you almost certainly will be at 0% or close to that (and AI loves building a lot of -crime)

3rd - that lead us to the criminal church - I assume that it's mostly RP build (aside from great trade benefits from spiritualist pops) . and your goal should be mostly to open the office without asking. then build a temple to start converting. and that's where I think the problem lies - you can't build a temple until it's large enough(25+) and by that time ai will usually have enough crime reduction to throw you off. and since temple doesn't generate crime(for criminal empire) you'll be thrown away faster. also conversion is too small to be noticeable if you consider the short life span of the branches.

imho some of those problem could be solved by 3 things:
1)when a player select criminal heritage and gospel together - give them a special criminal temple with 25 crime(or similar number)
2)maybe a free slot in each office? so you could open them earlier and gain benefits(even RP-ones) from a different opening moves - either a temple or harbor or even something other(or if not free - then at 10 pops where opponent has ability to build enforcers if he want). also a nerf to that building that gives 50 crime(to 25 too, so all buildings will give the same amount). cuz it's almost no brainer 1st pick if you want your office to stay long.
3)dedication to fighting crime is ok(if you really need it) but I've noticed that sometimes AI is overdoing it. even when there are no criminal syndicates in the game.

ps: maybe I misunderstood and doing something wrong. then I'll gladly hear the way to properly play criminal megachurch. but right now I see it only as a criminal empire with a benefits of great trade power at the start (I usually have more trade score then 2nd and 3rd place combined. on admiral). and I can see no way to build a temple. especially after the midgame, where everyone has social tech and harmony perk that gives more then enough ethic attraction to counter it.
 

Slynx

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also (just came to me) there is no description in the civic (or anywhere I've searched) how much Trade you exactly get from spiritualists?
 

fishworshipper

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It seems like Criminal Heritage is best played in multiplayer games. The AI is always capable and willing to just drop down a boatload of Enforcer jobs, but it’ll hurt a lot more for a player.
 

Slynx

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It seems like Criminal Heritage is best played in multiplayer games. The AI is always capable and willing to just drop down a boatload of Enforcer jobs, but it’ll hurt a lot more for a player.
well not really. I doubt even in multiplayer you will want to build a temple as a 1st building in your branch(and if it's not 1st - human players make take measures before you finish building it). even if you do - 1 enforcer spawning building will be enough to get rid of you. (and for undeveloped worlds(24-) basic enforcers from admin are enough to kick you out). at least that's what I've witnessed so far

so overall you'll get it for flavor and trade only (IMHO). again
 

fishworshipper

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well not really. I doubt even in multiplayer you will want to build a temple as a 1st building in your branch(and if it's not 1st - human players make take measures before you finish building it). even if you do - 1 enforcer spawning building will be enough to get rid of you. (and for undeveloped worlds(24-) basic enforcers from admin are enough to kick you out). at least that's what I've witnessed so far

so overall you'll get it for flavor and trade only (IMHO). again
I do agree that Gospel of the Masses and Criminal Heritage aren’t actually very good together. I just think that Criminal Heritage in general is significantly stronger in multiplayer games, as other players generally will have plans for their planets and having to build a load of Enforcer buildings can actually hamstring or derail those plans.
 

Slynx

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probably. although if we put temples aside Criminal+Church is a pretty solid start.
you focus exploration and energy early game. gospel will help a lot with it(you need 1k+ energy + 500 minerals per branch, easy to get enough income in 20-40 years)
then you explore as fast and as much as possible to meet lots of other empires.
then you open office in every single capitol and build a crime building. (usually you'll have 20+ trade income, even more from spiritual worlds I guess)

in 50 months you'll gain profit from every single branch that'll survive.

ps: oh, and you must have a decent fleet. or AI may want to try to declare a war on you, which may hurt a bit.
 

fodazd

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From I see, the trade value bonus from gospel of the masses is +0.25 trade value per spiritualist pop. Not the strongest bonus in the world, but among the corporate civics its actually pretty good if you can get enough spiritualist attraction going.

...But the prosperity temple is just really weak in general in my opinion, even if you aren't a criminal.
 

Slynx

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From I see, the trade value bonus from gospel of the masses is +0.25 trade value per spiritualist pop. Not the strongest bonus in the world, but among the corporate civics its actually pretty good if you can get enough spiritualist attraction going.

...But the prosperity temple is just really weak in general in my opinion, even if you aren't a criminal.
thanks for the info!

as for non-criminal church - I think it may be better for it's purpose cuz unlike criminal branch, normal can't be kicked out (if you've managed to gain a permission). so you have better chances for a full conversion of pops.
 

Slynx

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after witnessing this mod - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1598699516 (megabrothel) in the steam's workshop I suddenly realized that Megachurch could've followed it's example (the corporation in the mod can build it's special buildings both on Branch office and on their planets.

Gospel of the masses would be much cool if you'd be able to build a temple of prosperity on your own planets.
just thinking.