Creating new dynasties (it might not be what you think)

[Miaow]

You don't need a new reason to create cadet branches. You already have the same reason Lowborns are assigned a random dynastic name when they become lords: an enormous monolithic dynasty is completely broken. You definitely don't want to give the player (or AI) incentive to split off cadet branches as this would mean they'd get even more advantages than they already getting for spread their dynasty over the map.

As WingedLion14 says, the best way would be to have it work as it did historically: if a junior branch of the dynasty holds a title, they become "of Title", "Title" or they form a name based on the given name of the cadet who received the title. Possibly they could hyphenate in the old dynasty name or retain some ties with the main branch, but the more important thing, from a gameplay perspective, is breaking up the mammoth dynasties.

 

[Ruwaard]

@ Miaow: IMHO I wouldn't make establishing cadet branches automatic though. IMHO it should be related to distance to the main branch and/or the title this junior branch holds. For instance if a junior branch holds a title, which is equal* to the title rank of the main branch, the creation of a cadet branch should happen sooner (and if a junior branch would manage to rise above the main branch, that might be even quicker). (*= for simplicity if the main branch holds an imperial title and a junior branch an independent kingdom, they could be treated as equal for this mechanism.)
The basic pace for this mechanism IMHO should be holding a title one tier below the main branch (with the exception for an imperial main branch and an independent junior royal branch (so the latter is not a vassal of the former).
A two (or more) tier title distance between the main branch and a junior branch, should be slower (only determined by the distance component) if the junior branch holds a lower title, but (see above) should be much quicker if a junior branch rises above the main branch.

 

[kemmy23]

You don't need a new reason to create cadet branches. You already have the same reason Lowborns are assigned a random dynastic name when they become lords: an enormous monolithic dynasty is completely broken. You definitely don't want to give the player (or AI) incentive to split off cadet branches as this would mean they'd get even more advantages than they already getting for spread their dynasty over the map.

As WingedLion14 says, the best way would be to have it work as it did historically: if a junior branch of the dynasty holds a title, they become "of Title", "Title" or they form a name based on the given name of the cadet who received the title. Possibly they could hyphenate in the old dynasty name or retain some ties with the main branch, but the more important thing, from a gameplay perspective, is breaking up the mammoth dynasties.

Doing that would mean a huge amount of cadet branches of a dynasty. Creating a Cadet branch must be a concious decision, it cannot be a uncontrollable mechanic.

 

[Ruwaard]

Doing that would mean a huge amount of cadet branches of a dynasty. Creating a Cadet branch must be a concious decision, it cannot be a uncontrollable mechanic.

IMHO it can be a mechanic, or at least it IMHO should be influenced by modifiers (see my previous post (#62)).

However my suggestion can be altered a bit. Maybe junior branches, which hold a title, which is two tiers or more below the main branch, should never split from the main branch.
A junior branch holding a title one tier below the main branch should IMHO be the basic value for a split. For instance junior ducal branches versus a main Royal branch, but also for an Imperial main branch and a vassalized Royal junior branch. The basic value might a certain distance to the main branch, but this might need to be retro-active, all the way back to founder of this line.
When a junior branch and a main branch acquire a title of equal rank, they should split sooner, but also in case of an independent Royal junior branch and an Imperial main branch.
If a junior branch manages to rise above the main branch, that should IMHO happen even quicker.

 

[kemmy23]

IMHO it can be a mechanic, or at least it IMHO should be influenced by modifiers (see my previous post (#62)).

Again having any form of mechanic that is not controlled by a concious decision of the player will most likely lead to chaos. It is far better to give the player the option to create a cadet branch.

 

[Ruwaard]

Again having any form of mechanic that is not controlled by a concious decision of the player will most likely lead to chaos. It is far better to give the player the option to create a cadet branch.

So you want a player only option and not a general feature?

Again a mechanic doesn't need to lead chaos, but then it might need to be confined to ducal, royal and imperial titles. However if the main branch is of comital rank and a junior branch acquires a title of ducal, royal or imperial rank, then they can split; again that might also be determined by the distance to the main branch or the current head of the dynasty.

 

[kemmy23]

So you want a player only option and not a general feature?

A concious decision that players, and perhaps the AI must take if they want to create a cadet branch.

Again a mechanic doesn't need to lead chaos, but then it might need to be confined to ducal, royal and imperial titles. However if the main branch is of comital rank and a junior branch acquires a title of ducal, royal or imperial rank, then they can split; again that might also be determined by the distance to the main branch or the current head of the dynasty.

It could very easily lead to chaos, as well as destroying the choesive nature of dynasties within CK2.

Having the creation of cadet branches as a concious decision by the player, has all the benefits of the cadet branches (such as things related to RP) without including any of the dangers of it.

 

[Ruwaard]

@ kemmy23: any concious AI will probably take some of my suggestions and other items into account. Again it also doesn't have to lead to chaos, for instance most of my suggestions are basically modifiers, so they would increase the likelihood this decision would be taken. A certain rank probably must be required in order to be allowed to implement it.

Define chaotic, do you consider a situation with a main Capetian branch, an Orléans, Artois, Anjou, Bourbon etc. branch chaotic? Hence I also suggest that any mechanic or decision might at best be limited to characters of ducal, royal or imperial tier.

This would require certain rules between a parent house and cadet branches, but also between cadet branches. Several branches, who derive from siblings, probably will interact, but how about cadet branches, which have split from the dynasty at different points? In the last scenario probably only when they end up as rival claimants to inherit from the parent house.

Anyway with clear defined rules IMHO it doesn't have to lead to chaos, but maybe you can elaborate on the kind of chaos you are expecting.

 

[Orko80]

It should be a decision that have to be taken by the new head of the cadet branch. Cost the usual prestige, piety and money. And in addition have to be approved by the head of the parent dynasty.
Also somehow tied to succession and crown law.

I see one of the biggest game play improvement possibilities in the Islamic world. Breaking up those humongous dynasties that already accumulate within 2 generation's would be nice.

Any big dynasty needs some mechanic to be broken up. It's quite silly if you can have a whole dynasty rule the known world.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

We don't need to create a whole new set of systems/mechanics to require Cadet branches. The question of whether Cadet branches should exist in CK2 is answered like this:

Does the existence of Cadet branches have a historical grounding? I would say Yes.

I agree here, there are historical groundings to this in some areas.

Does Cadet branches add an interesting dynamic to gameplay? I would say Yes.

Only if there is a mechanic to it. If it doesn't actually do anything except chop your dynasty into tiny pieces - especially for something as minor as gaining *any* landed title, it doesn't add an interesting dynamic, and in fact damages the game if suddenly the king is a different dynasty to his three sons who have each acquired a duchy.

Does Cadet branches add some RP value to the game? Yes.

In some cases yes, in others it takes away from it as nearby relatives are still less inclined to treat each other as family than they are without it.

The compulsion to create Cadet branches would already be there, for it would limit claims of more powerful dynasty members on your titles as well as enabling you to have some prestige 'trickle' from the parent dynasty.

The only claims that are generated are close family members and people who come second or third in successions. We already have prestige gains to the dynasty from other titled members.



You need to propose some mechanics that will actually work for your ideas to be of any real value otherwise you might as well be going "I want a spaceship", and then when someone asks what it would add and what it would do the only answer that you can come up with is "Spaceships are cool".

 

[kemmy23]

You need to propose some mechanics that will actually work for your ideas to be of any real value otherwise you might as well be going "I want a spaceship", and then when someone asks what it would add and what it would do the only answer that you can come up with is "Spaceships are cool".

Nothing I have said or recommended allows you to compare my position to me saying "Spaceships are cool". My position has always been that a cadet branches, if they become incorporated into CK2 should be a concious decision of the player, and even the AI. Having it as a uncontrolled mechanic could easily problems for the game. It is also questionable whether doing so is realistic in the historical sense. Every time a Cadet branch of a larger dynasty has become a cadet branch, is when the head of a particular branch has made a concious decision to go by different name: Case in point George V and the House of Windsor.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Nothing I have said or recommended allows you to compare my position to me saying "Spaceships are cool". My position has always been that a cadet branches, if they become incorporated into CK2 should be a concious decision of the player, and even the AI. Having it as a uncontrolled mechanic could easily problems for the game. It is also questionable whether doing so is realistic in the historical sense. Every time a Cadet branch of a larger dynasty has become a cadet branch, is when the head of a particular branch has made a concious decision to go by different name: Case in point George V and the House of Windsor.

But essentially what you are saying is "this should be added", and then not giving any suggestions of "how" this should be added, and in fact then fighting against possible mechanics that are proposed. What do you /actually/ want this to do for the game?

As it is, just allowing the player to fragment their dynasty does nothing useful, and thus no-one would do it. It also risks game over by reducing the pool of available heirs for your dynasty, especially in Elective, Seniority, or Tanistry.

Windsor being introduced was a side show to WW II, as a way to distance the family from Germany. If there was a reason like that in game to do it, then it's an example of a good reason to do it. It wasn't however done on a whim as you seem to think.

 

[kemmy23]

But essentially what you are saying is "this should be added", and then not giving any suggestions of "how" this should be added, and in fact then fighting against possible mechanics that are proposed. What do you /actually/ want this to do for the game?

I explained what I wanted to achieve on the very first post of this thread. I have also explained how I see such a mechanic being implemented; you press a button on the dynasty screen, pay in some prestige and you now have a cadet dynasty.

As it is, just allowing the player to fragment their dynasty does nothing useful, and thus no-one would do it. It also risks game over by reducing the pool of available heirs for your dynasty, especially in Elective, Seniority, or Tanistry.

As I said at the beginning, many of its advantages is based around its RP ability. In regards to it risking a game over, there are many mechanics and decisions one can make that can lead to game over in CK2. Your point is empty in that regard unless you advocating that Paradox remove all decisions that risk Game Overs.

This ability would be adding to what a player can do within the game, it would be a new and voluntary decision that one can take in the game.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I explained what I wanted to achieve on the very first post of this thread. I have also explained how I see such a mechanic being implemented; you press a button on the dynasty screen, pay in some prestige and you now have a cadet dynasty.

As I said at the beginning, many of its advantages is based around its RP ability. In regards to it risking a game over, there are many mechanics and decisions one can make that can lead to game over in CK2. Your point is empty in that regard unless you advocating that Paradox remove all decisions that risk Game Overs.

This ability would be adding to what a player can do within the game, it would be a new and voluntary decision that one can take in the game.

OK. So aside from chopping off sections of your dynasty, what is the game impact of creating this cadet dynasty? What does it actually do?

As far as I can see, it removes a large section of your family from being potential heirs for you, and raises the chances of a game over.
It reduces your overall prestige gain for the dynasty, as now a branch of the family isn't contributing to the pool of family prestige that every character born to the dynasty gets a fraction of.

It may add RP ability, but to my mind it's already there, since it's perfectly possible to already mentally treat the line of the Duke of York as being a separate cadet branch to that of the Duke of Lancaster, who are again separate from the King of England (who also holds the Duchies of Essex and Wessex). All it seems to do is mean that should the King of England suddenly die childless, with his nearest relatives being the two Dukes who are now cadet branches, there's a potential game over.


I'm not advocating removing potential game over causing decisions (the only ones of which I can really think of is a matrilinear marriage, deliberately selecting non-dynasty members in elective, or assigning all your heirs to be bishops), just not adding another one.


Give us some possible mechanics of what these cadet branches might do, even if they're only rough, and why the roleplaying effects of effectively disinheriting your brother from your titles by making him a different dynasty to yourself would be in any way positive to yourself?