Creating King Titles impossible with a Liege?

[Olaus Petrus]

Does that mean you would be fine to give up all the holdings you have in the old kingdom if you are allowed to create the new one?

In CKI I always tried to get rid of the lands I had in Europe after I had created Kingdom of Jerusalem, because I really didn't have time for Boulogne and Lower Lorraine when I was trying to build my empire in Levant, so I usually gave my European provinces and titles to relatives and didn't react when they declared independence because of distance. Besides if King of Germany or France would have wanted to take those lands it would have been practically impossible and far too expensive to defend those territories. If I manage to do the same in CKII I assume France and HRE are going to be even more pain in the bottom if I try to keep those lands.

 

[Firenz]

Byzantines have an Empire title so you can form a King title cause a King is lower on scope than an Emperor. You can't create a title that is equal in rank to the title of your liege.

ah.... makes sense.

Has anyone tried switching their primary and forming from there? Or would that still fall foul of the vassal state? I presume that vassal status is conferred onto the character and not the individual territory?

Can you have provinces in two kingdoms subject to different rulers? I'm sure that there are more historical examples than the English/French "cross channel" nobility.

 

[the_hdk]

ah.... makes sense.

Has anyone tried switching their primary and forming from there? Or would that still fall foul of the vassal state? I presume that vassal status is conferred onto the character and not the individual territory?

Can you have provinces in two kingdoms subject to different rulers? I'm sure that there are more historical examples than the English/French "cross channel" nobility.

1 - No I couldn't break as I couldn't create the King title without being independent.
2 - I don't think so. but im not 100% sure.

 

[NADster]

It'd be nice to offer to relinquish your lands in a kingdom in exchange for others. If you were say, Duke of Toulouse, and you conquered Jerusalem and wanted to make yourself King of Jerusalem then (and I'm going by what you said, since I haven't tried this) you can't, you have to be independent, which means the Kingdom of Jerusalem would come with large holdings in southern France? No, better to have a chat with the King and say "look, I'm going to become king of Jerusalem so I'm going to pass all my holdings in your kingdom to my cousin who would swear fealty to you, I hope we can still be friends x."

Why should your king let you go? You are his vassal, not only the french provinces but also the provinces in the holy land are under his rule ...

... if the ai would try to ask me for independence in this situation I would NEVER let it go without a war!

 

[HolisticGod]

So it's still not possible for a King to be a Duke or Count in another Kingdom? That's too bad, although I don't know how common that was.

The much larger problem, it seems to me, is if you can't be a baron under a lord of equal or inferior rank, including your own vassals. I haven't tried this, but obviously this was much more common. There wasn't a true feudal relationship between the King of France owning a castle in Champagne and the local count, but land ownership was wildly spread out in the middle ages. If I can't be the independent Duke of Flanders with castles in France or even my own Brabantine vassal counties, a lot of the basis of warfare in the period is eliminated. Although I suppose you can get around this by having family members in those positions.

What about dukes? Can I be a Duke in France and a count in the HRE?

As for the_hdk's problem, I don't think piety quite captures it, though. Again, I think Paradox's difficulty here is that there really can't be a realistic "recognize King" mechanic, so at the very least you have to win independence from your liege. No, none of the Kings in Outremer needed to fight wars of independence (as far as I know), but didn't they also remain vassals back home? And weren't they all recognize for what they were by the crowned heads?

 

[the_hdk]

Why should your king let you go? You are his vassal, not only the french provinces but also the provinces in the holy land are under his rule ...

... if the ai would try to ask me for independence in this situation I would NEVER let it go without a war!

read up on the first crusade. Or if you really want a good source read Asbrigde's First Crusade or The Crusades.

 

[Slaxl]

Why would the king agree knowing that your heir would just take the lands with them when you died? At the very least he would require you to turn his de jure lands over to crown control.

I assumed the heir left behind would be disinherited from succession in the new kingdom, I probably should have said that.

Why should your king let you go? You are his vassal, not only the french provinces but also the provinces in the holy land are under his rule ...

Because the alternative is civil war. This way he keeps his de jure borders and there's no fighting. Also because it happened in real life. People went off to the Crusades, abandoned their rights and lands at home and set up as independent rulers in the holy land, much to the Byzantines chagrin. Now obviously what I'm saying is slightly different but it makes sense both historically and from a gameplay perspective.

But just look at the scenario I gave, where I wanted to make my 3rd son King of Aragon but I couldn't otherwise Aragon would have rule over Amiens, so imagine there could have been a discussion between father and son where pa says "Im going to make you king of Aragon, just give me the county of Amiens back", the son will always say "sure thing, pa!". That's what I want, the ability to negotiate to trade these things, so it works in the opposite direction where a King of Jerusalem can be established in return for reliquishing control of the holdings in the French kingdom.

 

[the_hdk]

Biggest example can be Godfrey, Duke of Lower Lorraine. Subject to an Emperor. Yet he created the Kingdom of Jerusalem. (He wasn't crowned, but his brother was). His titles in Europe ware not inherited by his brother though.

 

[unmerged(209891)]

Thats pretty lame, I hadn't run into this yet. Based on the name of the game I hope they work in making the things that actually happened in the Crusades possible in the game.

 

[Sir Garnet]

So if an ambitious crusader, it is best to be a vassal of an Emperor so you can establish a Kingdom.

 

[andersonm]

So if an ambitious crusader, it is best to be a vassal of an Emperor so you can establish a Kingdom.

Exactly... as Bohemia I formed Kingdom of Bohemia without issue so definitely possible in the HRE.

 

[Ruwaard]

You can't create a kingdom without being independent or a vassal of the empire (and be content to be a vassal king of the empire (for a while)), but it would still be possible to conquer an existing one.

 

[Tengri]

Try moving your capital to the Holy Land...

Can someone tell me how to move your capital?

 

[Ruwaard]

Can someone tell me how to move your capital?

IIRC you will have to change your primary title, so that will at least require a few titles in your (personal) highest tier.

 

[the_hdk]

IIRC you will have to change your primary title, so that will at least require a few titles in your (personal) highest tier.

actually you can move your capital just check the province you want to move to. On the upper left side near the name you can press a button to change the capital.

 

[Ruwaard]

actually you can move your capital just check the province you want to move to. On the upper left side near the name you can press a button to change the capital.

So the capital of Plantagenet/Angevin England can be in Angers (capital of Anjou)?

 

[the_hdk]

So the capital of Plantagenet/Angevin England can be in Angers (capital of Anjou)?

it can be in Medina

 

[avante]

Not necessarily but still. If you only have one or two provinces in France but all of Jerusalem that's a lot of money and time to ship troops to France to get independence. It might be better to just be able to form indepence with giving your old liege a casus belli. That way they still can get their land back and ultimately you may have to ship the troops anyway.

I have not read all the post in this thread. so maybe someone else stated this already:
But when you wage a war of independece, your liege should be attacking you, right?

So would moving your capital to jerusalem (for instance) not make rather sure your king will not sail all the way to make you a vassal again..?
Sure Jerusalem will be hard to hold if he did, but the King will certainly upset his vassal for raising their troops for so long.

-LOL okey I definatly should have read page 2 also before posting ;p-

 

[Martinus]

Incidentally, if you are the King of, say, England, but also are the Duke of Normandy, it's not exactly true that you have no link to France. Sure, you are not the French King's vassal for the purpose of levies, taxes and the like, but you are still asked for a vote when new laws are being passed in France, being a sort of de iure vassal. Which gives the French King more the reason to strip you of your holdings.