Creating King Titles impossible with a Liege?

[the_hdk]

Why has it been made impossible for duke's to create a King Title when your liege is also a King?

Makes the whole Crusading principle absolute?! If as a Duke I conquer the Holy Land, I cannot become the King as long as I have a liege. So first I have to have a war of independence.
Kinda weird If you ask me.

 

[Lornalt]

man if you have enough lands to form a kingdom a war of independence should be a walk over lol...

 

[Valvinar]

Not necessarily but still. If you only have one or two provinces in France but all of Jerusalem that's a lot of money and time to ship troops to France to get independence. It might be better to just be able to form indepence with giving your old liege a casus belli. That way they still can get their land back and ultimately you may have to ship the troops anyway.

 

[Jia Xu]

Try moving your capital to the Holy Land and giving your old duchy to your heir. You should be able to then declare independence without your liege being able to put up as much of a fight as if you had fought him at home. Your heir should become a vassal of your liege when you give him a duchy because dukes can't be the vassals of dukes. When you die, your heir should inherit the kingdom and take his duchy with him.

 

[Pyriel]

Not necessarily but still. If you only have one or two provinces in France but all of Jerusalem that's a lot of money and time to ship troops to France to get independence. It might be better to just be able to form indepence with giving your old liege a casus belli. That way they still can get their land back and ultimately you may have to ship the troops anyway.

Yeah but if I remember it correctly, the piety and prestige for creating Jerusalem was insane. Granted that was in the preview version

 

[Slaxl]

It'd be nice to offer to relinquish your lands in a kingdom in exchange for others. If you were say, Duke of Toulouse, and you conquered Jerusalem and wanted to make yourself King of Jerusalem then (and I'm going by what you said, since I haven't tried this) you can't, you have to be independent, which means the Kingdom of Jerusalem would come with large holdings in southern France? No, better to have a chat with the King and say "look, I'm going to become king of Jerusalem so I'm going to pass all my holdings in your kingdom to my cousin who would swear fealty to you, I hope we can still be friends x."

Incidentally I was playing as France yesterday and I conquered my way into northern Spain but realised I didn't really want the land or trouble, so I wanted to make the King of Aragon title then give it to my 3rd son, so the dynasty continues, however I'd already given him a small plot of land in France, I would like to say to him "give me back that land and I'll make you King of Aragon", so I wouldn't have the issue of ugly borders leading to war later.

 

[Captain Gars]

Yeah but if I remember it correctly, the piety and prestige for creating Jerusalem was insane. Granted that was in the preview version

If you have won that land in a crusade you will most likely have enough piety to pay the 200 it cost to create it. Even if you don't have 200 doesn't take that long to get.

 

[madmagnum]

Why has it been made impossible for duke's to create a King Title when your liege is also a King?

Makes the whole Crusading principle absolute?! If as a Duke I conquer the Holy Land, I cannot become the King as long as I have a liege. So first I have to have a war of independence.
Kinda weird If you ask me.

This is normal, since a king cannot be a vassal of another king. And you have to "persuade" your liege to let you free.

 

[the_hdk]

This is normal, since a king cannot be a vassal of another king. And you have to "persuade" your liege to let you free.

no it's not normal. It's not how it was in Ck1. It's ahistorical. and quite frankly pretty lame.

Slaxl, you got it pretty right :O. I was indeed Duchy of Toulouse. But I conquered whole of Kingdom of Africa. Only those lands are newly conquered so low on troops. And the King of France has an army of 25k+. No way I can beat that. Hell nobody was that strong in my game. It's pretty lame if you ask me as it gives the option of successful crusading only to Independent Rulers. And if You look at 1st Crusade thats not really what happened Not at all actually.

 

[Captain Gars]

no it's not normal. It's not how it was in Ck1. It's ahistorical. and quite frankly pretty lame.

Slaxl, you got it pretty right :O. I was indeed Duchy of Toulouse. But I conquered whole of Kingdom of Africa. Only those lands are newly conquered so low on troops. And the King of France has an army of 25k+. No way I can beat that. Hell nobody was that strong in my game. It's pretty lame if you ask me as it gives the option of successful crusading only to Independent Rulers. And if You look at 1st Crusade thats not really what happened Not at all actually.

Does that mean you would be fine to give up all the holdings you have in the old kingdom if you are allowed to create the new one?

 

[the_hdk]

Does that mean you would be fine to give up all the holdings you have in the old kingdom if you are allowed to create the new one?

yes I am, not so sure about my kids

seriously though yeah. But something has to be done about the fact that you can't recruit any troops in your newly conquered kingdom. otherwise you'd be defenseless. One or 2 provinces losing the (newly conquered, foreign religion etc) would be enough I guess to defend for a while

 

[Hamanu]

I think that would be a good option. Either fight for independence or give up your old titles for a new one overseas.

 

[Slaxl]

Does that mean you would be fine to give up all the holdings you have in the old kingdom if you are allowed to create the new one?

I think so, in the sense that I'd be role playing as a person who would have that chance to leave a squalid duchy behind and embark on a new life as King of a new country, perhaps Jerusalem. I'd throw everything I had away in a heartbeat, come to an arrangement with the King to leave my heir in charge of my estates in his kingdom.

 

[unmerged(433027)]

no it's not normal. It's not how it was in Ck1. It's ahistorical. and quite frankly pretty lame.

Slaxl, you got it pretty right :O. I was indeed Duchy of Toulouse. But I conquered whole of Kingdom of Africa. Only those lands are newly conquered so low on troops. And the King of France has an army of 25k+. No way I can beat that. Hell nobody was that strong in my game. It's pretty lame if you ask me as it gives the option of successful crusading only to Independent Rulers. And if You look at 1st Crusade thats not really what happened Not at all actually.

That reminds me of something similar which happened to me as William the conqueror.
The king of france "claimed England"......um what? I understand he wanted Normandy back but there absolutely nothing I could do to stop him....nothing....I had around 600 levy and 1,500 mercs,He took normandy over in a month with two stackes of 4-5,000.
The warscore was at 100 after that and I couldnt get enough taxes from my lands in england to get mercs and all I could raise were 16 men from the whole land.
so what did I do?I handed my title over and plotted with the duke of champagne to get it back and he agreed?
it was weird.

he was my grandson too and he was 3 years old,how embarrassing :laugh:

 

[HolisticGod]

the_hdk,

I think the actual problem is that there's no way to "negotiate" kingship. Historically, a duke in France becoming a King through crusade would have required recognition, if not from his liege than from the other crowned heads. The game doesn't simulate this-and I have no idea how it could, at least with an AI-and so the next best thing is a War of Independence.

Otherwise, becoming a King is too easy. It's unilateral.

 

[Firenz]

This is normal, since a king cannot be a vassal of another king. And you have to "persuade" your liege to let you free.

isn't this where the de jure mechanic comes in? Historically you have the whole mess with English rulers being vassals to the Capetian kings due to their holdings in France.

My assumption was that the implemenation of de jure kingdoms was inpart to allow for a character to be a duke/count within the kingdom and a king outside it.

@ OP - try changing your capital and primary title to something an indepent title. I have a feeling that in someone's AAR they did this to escape the Byzantine Emperor without risking their land and formed a kingdom.

 

[the_hdk]

the_hdk,

I think the actual problem is that there's no way to "negotiate" kingship. Historically, a duke in France becoming a King through crusade would have required recognition, if not from his liege than from the other crowned heads. The game doesn't simulate this-and I have no idea how it could, at least with an AI-and so the next best thing is a War of Independence.

Otherwise, becoming a King is too easy. It's unilateral.

Well the recognition part is already in it. You need 200 piety to be crowned. So You can say that you can crowned and recognized by the Pope (Like many monarchs in europe who got their crown from the Pope, (example Poland))

But if a Duke of Toulouse conquers the Levant he can't be crowned until he fights the King back home for Independence? Name one Crusader State that had to do that

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Does that mean you would be fine to give up all the holdings you have in the old kingdom if you are allowed to create the new one?

It could be something to look at as an option for the future. "So-and-so, Duke of X wishes to return his lands to the crown in exchange for being permitted to form Y beyond our borders" It the comes with choices like ' "Wish him well" - The duchy of X and all land and vassals within the duchy are returned to the crown (possibly +relations?, Duke of X gains prestige?)' '"He has sworn to our service" - penalty to relations, duke loses prestige' '" We will consider it " Sets a flag to ask again in a couple of months, only available on the first pass of this event chain'
Obviously there would need to be a way for the player to get this - possibly a "Return land to the crown" event linked to the Create Kingdom action. It warns you that any land held from your liege (at least in their de jure kingdom) will be returned if the king allows the petition. The AI would need to balance losing a powerful duke against having a powerful duke possibly look to have a war of indpendence or a throne war. It should be more willing to allow it if you have an alliance via marriage or blood ties.

 

[brifbates]

I think so, in the sense that I'd be role playing as a person who would have that chance to leave a squalid duchy behind and embark on a new life as King of a new country, perhaps Jerusalem. I'd throw everything I had away in a heartbeat, come to an arrangement with the King to leave my heir in charge of my estates in his kingdom.

Why would the king agree knowing that your heir would just take the lands with them when you died? At the very least he would require you to turn his de jure lands over to crown control.

 

[the_hdk]

isn't this where the de jure mechanic comes in? Historically you have the whole mess with English rulers being vassals to the Capetian kings due to their holdings in France.

My assumption was that the implemenation of de jure kingdoms was inpart to allow for a character to be a duke/count within the kingdom and a king outside it.

@ OP - try changing your capital and primary title to something an indepent title. I have a feeling that in someone's AAR they did this to escape the Byzantine Emperor without risking their land and formed a kingdom.

Byzantines have an Empire title so you can form a King title cause a King is lower on scope than an Emperor. You can't create a title that is equal in rank to the title of your liege.