Creating a new 1492 scenario

[unmerged(5206)]

Some ideas:

France controlled the city of Perpignan and the entire province of Rousillon in 1492. France also controlled the provinces of Artois and Franche Comte. Historically, France gave up these territories to their respecitve owners so that they could lay claim to the throne of Naples. Perhaps in the Napoli events, France could scede these cities to Austria and Spain if they chose to use their claim on Milan and Naples.

Would France be considered "at war" with Austria and Aragon in 1492?

That next brings me to Aragon. Should they be an independent vassal of Castile/Spain in 1492?

Should Pskov and Ryazan be vassals of Moscowy in 1492?

 

[metroncho]

Originally posted by Fate


That next brings me to Aragon. Should they be an independent vassal of Castile/Spain in 1492?

Vassals. Fernando was the King of Aragon after all.

 

[Smirfy]

If it's official then,

Ireland,

Eire should not exist, The seperate provines should each be independant Ulster, Connaught, Munster and Leinster. Meath should have a English CB shield to represent the Norman English that predominated here (every one has heard of the term "beyond the pale" this means beyond Meath no central government to put it politely.)

In 1601 if the English have vassal or better on Ulster, A Flight of the Earls event should occur and this would give England a CB shield and the religion should change to reformed to simulate the "plantation"

In 1641 all provinces except meath revolt but including Ulster if successful in Ulster it returns to Catholic and England loose cb shield with population drop

Execution of Charles I England loose their CB on Meath

1798 United Irishmen Revolt Eire can now form, again if successful England loose CB on Ulster but religion stays reformed

1801 Act of union with England passed revolt risk lowered

 

[BiB]

I don't really see the need for all these small things, to be honest

 

[metroncho]

Originally posted by BiB
I don't really see the need for all these small things, to be honest

Neither me
I think the 1492 right or wrong it´s the scenario to be used. If we start changing things we´d never end.
About weakening France, i´m sure we could find better ways than just splitting her, after all Bourbonnais wasn´t more independent than, let´s say, Valencia. Some sort of temporary financial or stability problems could be more suitable.

 

[Mowers]

An extremely brief summary of initial findings.

From my analysis so far its quite clear that France is not as powerful as it is in EU and that Austria is substantially more powerful than it is in EU. Spain is probably about right, as is Venice and England.

Overall, France ought to be more powerful than all the states individually but equal to Spain and England and a little more than Austria and Venice combined.

Many of you will have seen the regional map of france that JohnMk discovered which questions much of what we understand of France as a coherant state in the 1492 setup. I have 3 books that support this map and would point to the fact that France is portrayed incorrectly. I expect this stage to identify and seperate a number of French vassals who have very good relations with France and are military allied. I am looking at around 3 vassals comprising of 5 provinces at the moment.

Its clear that Spain was split, in EU terms, aragon was a vassal and stayed so at least till the 1550's.

Regarding Austria, there are serious problems but I can not make a change in the game code where the HRE recieves a small % of manpower and cash from Catholic HRE states that the Emporeur has good relations with.

Thus the implementation of this factor will be crudely muscled in. It will have to be cash and manpower bonus at the begining that the Austrian player will have to attempt not to squander.

I also think the Italian wars could be 'assisted' by the proper set up of Italy regarding player/country allocation. VEN is a must as is either the PAP or GEN.

These more realistic changes will bring retain French dominance but allow for a Hapsberg bid for mastery from the 1540's onwards. The harsh inflation rules and events should cause a decline in Spain around 1600 and opportunities for England and Dutch expansion.

Obviously, none of this is set but it is an improvement on the perpetual Franco- everyonelse wars which have absolutely no basis and in no way simulate the actual power balance of the time.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by metroncho
Neither me
I think the 1492 right or wrong it´s the scenario to be used. If we start changing things we´d never end.
About weakening France, i´m sure we could find better ways than just splitting her, after all Bourbonnais wasn´t more independent than, let´s say, Valencia. Some sort of temporary financial or stability problems could be more suitable.

Maybe it will never end but what is the objective?

To achieve an entirely 100% accurate 1492 scenario or to make a scenario that vaguely resembles the power balance of the time?

To me its clear.

Financial or stability problems are exactly not the problem in anyway. Indeed I plan to raise stability and cash as France had gone through a period of extended stability and growth.

Bourbannais is clearly more independant than, say Valancia. France is a very different state from Spain as you know and came together in a very different way and thus has a different set of problems.

 

[Johan]

Originally posted by Mowers
Regarding Austria, there are serious problems but I can not make a change in the game code where the HRE recieves a small % of manpower and cash from Catholic HRE states that the Emporeur has good relations with.

I can, and I have.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Johan
I can, and I have.

Hurrah. I *thought* you might....

 

[metroncho]

Originally posted by Mowers

To achieve an entirely 100% accurate 1492 scenario or to make a scenario that vaguely resembles the power balance of the time?

I think both are and must be the same.
To me its clear.

Originally posted by Mowers

Bourbannais is clearly more independant than, say Valancia. France is a very different state from Spain as you know and came together in a very different way and thus has a different set of problems.

Valencia had its own laws and justice and Cortes, same with Aragon and Catalunya (or the Basque lands). You can say the king of Aragon hold few power there, and subsequently neither the King of Spain.
So it´s strange you represent one and not the other.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Can i say again that latest 3 games don't mean anything, when it comes to Habsburg-France relative strenght?

The latest hype about France beign overpowered is based on wrong data.

 

[Smirfy]

Originally posted by BiB
I don't really see the need for all these small things, to be honest

Neither do I, it's my way of saying you think where you live is wrong wait till you see Ireland

 

[metroncho]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Can i say again that latest 3 games don't mean anything, when it comes to Habsburg-France relative strenght?

Well, it´s more than the last 3 games Maur. It´s a long time problem i ´ve seen in many games.
France has to be tweaked a bit , not much really, or their rivals strenghten. However the truth is that 1492 France was very very strong, but the Italian wars consumed her resources.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by metroncho
I think both are and must be the same.
To me its clear.

I disagree. Its impossible within the time constratints and resources and with the game engine design available to do both. You can strive for one but you must have the other in place first or all your little changes will be meaningless.

Originally posted by metroncho

Valencia had its own laws and justice and Cortes, same with Aragon and Catalunya (or the Basque lands). You can say the king of Aragon hold few power there, and subsequently neither the King of Spain.
So it´s strange you represent one and not the other. .

My Objective, which I have stated numerous times, is to first examine France and Austria. If others wish to take up the other countries then they are welcome to do so.

Having said that, none of what I have read so far would indicate that the relative differences between the domestic power balances of aragon-castile and valencia-castille are comparable.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by metroncho
Well, it´s more than the last 3 games Maur. It´s a long time problem i ´ve seen in many games.
France has to be tweaked a bit , not much really, or their rivals strenghten. However the truth is that 1492 France was very very strong.

Well, in both MGC 3 and MGC 4 Spain was stronger than France, wasn't it?

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by DarthMaur

The latest hype about France beign overpowered is based on wrong data.

You mean all the books in the district of Fulham & hammersmith as well as the districts of Chelsea and the district of Kensington are all wrong?

Or do you mean that we are looking at the wrong indicators?

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Well, in both MGC 3 and MGC 4 Spain was stronger than France, wasn't it?

Not in 4 it wasnt no.

3 was a criminal perversion of history!!

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Mowers
You mean all the books in the district of Fulham & hammersmith as well as the districts of Chelsea and the district of Kensington are all wrong?

Or do you mean that we are looking at the wrong indicators?

I mean that i feel that latest games where Austria and/or Spain were thoroughly trashed by France are the reason that people think France is overpowered compared to them. Ingame. No relevance to any books whatsoever.

 

[metroncho]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Well, in both MGC 3 and MGC 4 Spain was stronger than France, wasn't it?

After many years needed for developing.
In the 1490s France is far superior to Spain.
And MGC3 and 4 weren´t played with the new WE rules

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Originally posted by Mowers
Not in 4 it wasnt no.

3 was a criminal perversion of history!!

Hmm, i didn't follow it that much, but wasn't Spain twice as wealthy as France in XVIII century?