Cradles Of Civilization - Help?

[_JakesGotGames_]

Despite having one thousand hours, I suck.
I haven't done any WCs, I can't form Russia, and now in CoC 1.23, I can't start a game as the Ottomans.

Let me explain- its happened twice now, I'm on a roll, because this is the one start i've nailed. I take out Byzantium and my first problem arises. Albania guaranteed by Venice? My question is was this an update feature or is Venice just taking the piss? (Ik i can beat Venice but I don't have the patience.)

But the real thing is the Beyliks in Anatolia and surrounding Kingdoms. It's not like I haven't seen them ally themselves with neighboring kingdoms or even the Mamluks. But now by 1446 they have an intracate web of Allies and Guarantees, which makes it a struggle for me to conquer anything without feeling like i'm fighting Qaro Qoyunlu in 1444.

Any Ideas on how to fix this?

(Note: I own all dlcs)

 

[PAnZuRiEL]

Try getting your own allies, maybe?

 

[Docshadow]

I've noticed the Venice - Byzantium connection in the game I'm playing as England (getting back into the swing of things from a long hiatus) and also in an observer game I was running. It seems like a new alliance to me, or at least I never remember Byz really being able to pull allies in the early years. So I'm sure the new mix of nations could be resulting in a lot of new behavior in that region which could catch a player off-guard.

In the hands-off game the new Venice alliance eventually led to a complete Ottoman wipe (Candar and Karaman can also be blamed for what was either good luck or good allies, I wasn;t watching anywhere near close enough to tell for that space of time), a significant expansion of Byz.... and then the Mamluks took all of Anatolia and a resurgent Albania is now becoming a rising Balkan power along with Walachia.

Honestly it's all a bit weird to see, but also a refreshing change. I expect there will be a "significant" re-balance in the future as more metrics get collected, and I hope to see a slight strengthening of the Ottomans, but it really is fun to see new emergent histories in an area that has always been painted Ottoman green.

 

[PhoenixG]

If you have read the patchnote, you would have known that venice now starts with a guarantee on Albania. But besides that east anatolia and arabia will be harder to eat throgh fast, since the region has more dev and more tags. Pre-1.23 you could plow through it without any dipolmacy and only focus on coalition juggling. But now you need to make alliances/diplo vassal instead just charge in as a bull in a chinashop

 

[grand_Turk]

You're not alone. I had to disable lucky nations and forgot the achievements to evade the wrath of overpowered neighbours. With 1.23, playing with muslim countries has become more enjoyable and with the Ottoman Empire much harder which I won't complain about. Yet, some minor balance of powers might be good in my humble opinion.

 

[_JakesGotGames_]

Try getting your own allies, maybe?

Which Allies? Other Powers in the Reigon (QQ, Hungary, Timurids, Mamluks) are obvisously off the table. Tunis is too far and too weak in 1444. And all those new states are a mess in which allying with one will call me into every little skirmish. And i want to annex them anyways.

Maybe there is a hidden gem or something i'm missing?

Or maybe there is an easier nation now. (I tried ming, I'm not suited for tributary gameplay.)

 

[misiceman]

Which Allies? Other Powers in the Reigon (QQ, Hungary, Timurids, Mamluks) are obvisously off the table. Tunis is too far and too weak in 1444. And all those new states are a mess in which allying with one will call me into every little skirmish. And i want to annex them anyways.

Maybe there is a hidden gem or something i'm missing?

Or maybe there is an easier nation now. (I tried ming, I'm not suited for tributary gameplay.)

France most likely, as normally you can grab an early alliance which will make the AI less likely to jump you if your having issues. The main difference I have found so far in the Otto start is to take it slow. Which is actually a great lesson, because you dont need to go crazy in the 1st 50 years. Start building your power base slowly but steadily, and let Mehmeds overpowered stats carry you to a tech advantage. Uou should out tech mamluks by the time your ready to take the lavant (about tech 6 to their 5), unless they rolled an amazing heir (my game they rolled a 6/1/6... woo).

My opening was City of worlds desitre, take everything. Click decision, make Morea a vassal feed Athens to Morea (this is to save admin and get my first idea group faster which is always an admin group for me as ottos). My first goal is get millets and slowly expand. I vassilized Dukuldir, fed them a huge chunk of land while i worked on humanist ideas or go admin first for more coring reduction but i find this isnt super nessesary until a bit later (like 3rd idea). They are also the first vassal I diplo annexed (a they were big, b was mostly turkish land adn would be state cored anyways).

Extra mill goes to jannisaries. Lots of them. They are significantly stronger then your regular troops, especially drilled. Make sure you keep teching up on time for the tactics but yeah Jannisaries. This is good too because my normal games i have so much extra mill I am glad I have a great dump other then 80 generals or getting random state cores to 10 dev for an extra building. They are also going to be the tipping point vs mamluks. While they (mamluks) are stronger then before, with starting +5 disc and reduced damage to the janisarries you can soak A LOT more then they can. Bleed them dry and after the first war start the process heading to arabia and QQ-->timmy lands for more dev and then nom nom nom down to TC areas. Also since you dont have all the corres to reclaim watch your ae. go back and forth from east to west to spread it out untill you hit the shias or until you can stop caring about ae in Arabia and east Africa.

The real takeaway for me was i sat there as someone who could WC as ottos no problem (they are my normal test nation for new patches for me), and I actually had to sit and think for a bit since it changed so much and my normal process got gutted.

I still haven't seen/crunched the numbers of merc play vs drilled play yet but mercs are still VERY good, especially early game where you can basically ignore drill and just overwhelm your opponents. You can drill later.

Hope that helps.

 

[ElGranCapitan]

You're not alone. I had to disable lucky nations and forgot the achievements to evade the wrath of overpowered neighbours. With 1.23, playing with muslim countries has become more enjoyable and with the Ottoman Empire much harder which I won't complain about. Yet, some minor balance of powers might be good in my humble opinion.

The only lucky nation around you is Austria, neither Mamluks nor Poland or Hungary have luck

That is from the wiki:

1. Castile (before year 1700 and Spain does not exist) / Spain (before year 1700 and Castile does not exist)
2. Ottomans (before year 1700)
3. Muscovy (if Russia does not exist) / Russia
4. England (if Great Britain does not exist) / Great Britain
5. France
6. Austria
7. Prussia (after year 1700)
8. Netherlands
9. Portugal (before year 1700)
10. Brandenburg
11. Sweden (before year 1700)
12. Poland (If Commonwealth does not exist) / Commonwealth (before year 1700)

The first eight nations from the top of the list will get priority on acquiring the Luck modifier, therefore, at the beginning of 1444, the lucky nations are (unless you pick one of them):
Castile, Ottomans, Muscovy, England, France, Austria, Portugal, and Brandenburg


If you play as the Ottomans, Sweden takes the spot as the next in line

 

[I_am_Nemo]

But the real thing is the Beyliks in Anatolia and surrounding Kingdoms. It's not like I haven't seen them ally themselves with neighboring kingdoms or even the Mamluks. But now by 1446 they have an intracate web of Allies and Guarantees, which makes it a struggle for me to conquer anything without feeling like i'm fighting Qaro Qoyunlu in 1444.

Any Ideas on how to fix this?

You should be able to diplo vassal Ramazan and Dulkadir - you might have to use GP influence/gifts to get them over 190 positive, but it should be doable. Might have to return a core to Dul, can't remember for sure. Albania can also be diplo vassaled, if you return core. (Maybe I just got lucky that they went friendly?) As for allies, you can always ally somebody and plan to stab them in the back later. QQ or AQ would be a good one to help you break things down in eastern Anatolia. I was able to ally Hungary in my current game, I think it's random whether they start out rivaling you or not; they didn't, and went friendly, so ally.

Other than that, as others have said, Janissaries. Recruit them as often as you can, you get them free without spending manpower. Make a stack of Janissaries + cav, give it your best shock general (if your starting general lives a while, he'll do fine), drill them to max, and then use that as a hammer to beat enemy stacks. Park them next to a siege stack of regular infantry + cannon (no need to ruin Janissary drill and eat their reinforce cost) for sieges. Then just focus on taking down one enemy nation at a time, peace out allies, etc. Really, so long as you don't end up fighting a huge coalition or Mameluks + a bunch of minors, you can probably just brute force your way through eastern Anatolia with Janessaries + good generals + decent stack management.

 

[firehazard]

You can ally QQ. I've just started an Ottoman run and of course I noticed that conquering the east would be a bit more difficult. One of the first things I did was improve relations with QQ. After I had conquered Byzantium I allied QQ. Then I promised them land to get them to join a war against AQ because AQ was allied to Karaman, Ramazan and Hisn Kayfa. Since I was at war with Karaman (who allied the Mamluks) I separated peaced them and had them break that alliance. When the truce ends I'll have plenty of claims on Karaman and I won't have to fight the Mamluks at the same time.

Anyway, I conquered a bit of land, had AQ release Syria and gave one province to QQ, so they still trust me. I then diplo-vassalized Syria so I can get their cores from the Mamluks. Now I'm preparing to DoW on Candar, Dulkadir and Trebizond (who are all allied). When I get enough favours with Tunis and QQ, I'll DoW on the Mamluks to get Syrian cores back. Then I'll annexe the rest of AQ, release Iraq as as vassal, break my alliance with QQ, and when the truce with QQ ends, conquer the Iraqi cores from QQ.

If QQ has rivalled you, then just ally with some of the minors who are rivalled to the country you want to conquer. They'll still help a fair bit. Make and break whatever alliances you need to. Take your time if you must. Really, you should be able to beat a few minors by yourself anyway.

The Ottomans have always been very powerful and they still are. Honestly, I hate to say it but if you can't make an Ottoman start work you need to lift your game mate. However, it seems (judging by your post) that you don't actually suck at the game but you just want to conquer your enemies one by one rather than fight an alliance of them.

btw, Tunis is a great ally against the Mamluks. Tunis isn't that strong but because they are on the opposite border of the Mamluks to you, the Mamluks will send a huge chunk of their army to them, which means you don't have to fight the entire Mamlukean army at once.

and don't forget (you said you had all DLCs) the Ottomans are a Great Power. You can ask other nations to break their alliances. Might be worth a try

 

[ElGranCapitan]

A good strategy is:
recruit maximum amount of Janissaries, get another general and 150 mil from the nobles
Send your Janissaries to Anatolia and blockade the strait with your fleet, drill the Janissaries
Fight Byzantium with our regular troops while drilling the Janissaries in the safety of Anatolia
Keep your focus on mil until tech 4, when you hit tech 4 immediately attack the Mamluks (with the levant mission claims)

You have tech 4 vs 3 and you have Janissaries that have twice as much drill as the Mamluks units
Before 1.23 you wouldn't have Janissaries during the first Mamluk war

 

[firehazard]

I disagree with attacking the Mamluks immediately. I think it's better to release Syria from AQ and get their cores. You get far less AE and can better afford to take the AE from conquering the Anatolian Minors. Also if you attack the Mamluks immediately you won't have Tunis or QQ helping you. While it isn't that difficult to defeat the Mamluks by yourself it is still preferable to have allies so you might as well wait to get the favours with allies to have them join your war.
While you're waiting you can conquer the minors around the Mamluks so you won't be wasting time anyway. By the time you reach 1455 you ought to have an ally and 10 favours you can use to get them to join. You should have Syria as a vassal so you can use their Reconquest CB.
Then you declare the 1st Mamluk war and take the Syrian cores.

When you're about to finish diplo-annexing Syria, then you take the Levant mission. You conquer the remaining provinces you need (should be able to get a few more beyond that). The other advantage of this is that you don't have the Conquer Levant mission active while you have the truce with the Mamluks (you can't conquer all the provinces you need in one war), which means you can do other missions in the interim.

However, if you aren't going to go with the 'Syria Strategy' and intend to just conquer the levant for yourself I recommend attacking Cyprus immediately after your war with the Mamluks (assuming Cyprus doesn't have too many others they can call in). This will call the Mamluks in again (they guarantee Cyprus), you'll easily win since their army is probably quite small after you just beat them. Then you separate peace Mamluks with a White Peace. This means your truce will only last 5 years, you'll get Cyprus, you'll do some easy, cheap damage to the Mamluks and you'll be able to start the 2nd Mamluk war far earlier than otherwise.

 

[misiceman]

I would rather have larger vassals , than allies. They both accomplish the same thing in avoiding direct losses (and they generally both suck), but you can feed them when nessesary. Also I don't like releasing Syria. Its a super fast coring job since its your culture group, you should have millets and possibly admin 2 for very cheap cores and its very high dev land that is your religion that should almost be stated right away. Especially Damascus area. The AE shouldn't bother to much, especially if you have waited a bit and let a diplomat work his magioc everywhere while spreading out and grabbing land.

If you are going to attack immediately however, I would think punching out syria is the way to go due to the lack of CCR.

 

[firehazard]

Yeah, but early on getting a couple of allies is very helpful (If nothing else they distract the enemy and siege their provinces) and you can just dump them whenever anyway. The truce you get is very short if you plan to attack them.
I have the first Mamluk War long done before I get Millets and I also to go for Influence ideas first, so no lower coring cost for me at that point.
I very much like to release vassals, conquer their cores then diplo-annexe. It means my conquest is split between spending admin and dip and I get less AE (which even if managed well can slow you down).

And of course you would prefer to have larger vassals. I would too but at the start you can't really have that. You have to grow them from a vassal small enough that you could vassalize it in the first place. Until you get those larger vassals, it's good to have allies.

Also, if you conquer for a vassal, you don't get OE and can immediately start picking on someone else

 

[makaramus]

I allready missing old times... conquer entire anatolia and byzantium by 1445, relase persia as vassal and have gigantic fed vassal that incrasing production(also: sunni XD), conquer entire india and turn it into trade company...
those old good days #Sarcasm

 

[firehazard]

Yeah, I miss that too but am also glad they removed the cores and made the early game more interesting in that area.
Then again, Byzantium must be nearly impossible this patch but there's always been a chance of getting Byzantium going and there have been people in past patches who declared Byzantium had become impossible and they were always wrong.

 

[seriousgigi]

idk the world conquest strategy but i don't take lands before picking 3 ideas from ADM when i play with the turks.

1. make ADM focus and pick +2 ADM advisor. forget the albanian core.
2. DOW on byz only take constantinople, humiliate them or full annex them but create athens/morea as vassal and feed it with morean provinces.
3. DOW on candar and full annex them. (in COC you need this for diplo vassalising dulkadir i guess)
4. then diplo vassalize dulkadir and dow on karaman + ramazan, still don't take provinces to yourself feed dulkadir with those beyliks.
5. vassalize wal or annex ser for the available missions at that time. (usually player ottoman empire can't see conquer serbia mission (i think i've never seen it), rarely vassalize wal, or conquer bos. usually you get either conquer levant or safeguard eastern anatolia missions.
6. DOW on aqq, venice or other easter anatolian weaklings then dow on mamluks.