Cradle of Civilisation - Hard Life For Hordes or is it?

[MiniaAr]

How would you play Hordes in MP, let's say the Great Horde, with a populated Asia (Transoxiana, Korea, Oirats, Chinese minors)?

1. Do you raze everything you conquer, including your own culture group (Crimea, Kazan, Nogay)? Or do you make exceptions for right culture, right religion and right good provinces (copper, iron, salt and gold of course)?
   
   
2. How fast do you develop that gold mine in Kazan, and how high?(10 prod as soon as possible?)
   
   
3. Should you reform 1st idea group, or is 2nd ok? Do you chose Economic, or maybe Administrative?
   
   
4. Do you state your lands, or just keep your original states and territory everywhere then?
   
   
5. Is a debasing strategy viable in MP: using debasing when it's making you money?

 

[Sfan]

It mostly depends on who is in Europe. If only Asia is crowded, you can try to play a semi SP game, going for Caucasus, middle east (ally Ottos if they're AI), and then Europe. And then you don't have to reform asap.
Else, I don't know for 1, it's a bit tricky to balance this in MP.
Yes, to the sky asap, especially in MP.
First group if you're stuck and can't expand, and then take economic. If you're playing a semi SP game, take admin first, and let open the possibility to reform later on but don't do it immediately.
It depends on your admin points, but I won't state everything early on.
It's unlikely it makes you money, you won't conquer fast enough.

 

[magni_]

How would you play Hordes in MP, let's say the Great Horde, with a populated Asia (Transoxiana, Korea, Oirats, Chinese minors)?

1. Do you raze everything you conquer, including your own culture group (Crimea, Kazan, Nogay)? Or do you make exceptions for right culture, right religion and right good provinces (copper, iron, salt and gold of course)?
   
   
2. How fast do you develop that gold mine in Kazan, and how high?(10 prod as soon as possible?)
   
   
3. Should you reform 1st idea group, or is 2nd ok? Do you chose Economic, or maybe Administrative?
   
   
4. Do you state your lands, or just keep your original states and territory everywhere then?
   
   
5. Is a debasing strategy viable in MP: using debasing when it's making you money?

For hordes in multiplayer it is normaly just suicide unles u are a player good enough to play them
and if your good enough you should not have a problem killing the orther hord players
just be aware that bancrupcy is not so bad for a horde (jes u wil get attacked but u can hust release nations u wan'tet to release any way for tributarys or give back land so u can raze it again

for razing jes u raze your own culture groop in mp if u can't state it

Goldmine in kasan u try to get it to 6/12/6 when ever u got points for it

Ideagroops: even as a horde your first military groop wil be a military one, since somthing else is suicide

Stating land is somthing u wil wan't to do even though the benefits are mouch less, u wil see some relay good and agresive players just leaving there tribes on 0% land and influence to limit the malus they get from them if they don't have any land

Jes debasing is a stratagy in multiplayer,how ever as a horde u wil ofthen finding you going 1-2 times bankrupt in a kampagne to kill a player

 

[Sfan]

Bakruptcy is a disaster in MP. How can you argue with that? Unless everyone is dumb they will dogpile you. If someone ever went bankrupt in an MP, no matter where I was I would no CB him. It's guaranteed that you win the war.

 

[magni_]

Bakruptcy is a disaster in MP. How can you argue with that? Unless everyone is dumb they will dogpile you. If someone ever went bankrupt in an MP, no matter where I was I would no CB him. It's guaranteed that you win the war.

Actualy u can fight a war as a bankrupt horde as long as u out number your enemy by about 30%

agains no cb ing players there are normaly rules that prevent u from doing that,same goes for trucebreaking
also u still have ally's in multiplayer that wil help u in the war

and about your garantied to win that war, no thats actualy not garantied at all, it ondly gives a 50% base morale debuff
so if u have quantity,religion,offenisve and defensive +prestige+PP+adviser u still fight with 110% of your morale

so as long as you stick to open terrain you can fight a opponent that has 170% morale with your 110% with out even geting close to geting stack wiped and with inflicting way more loses to them then you have. And by sending your and your team mates units in combat with stacks afther each other u can negate the morale disadvantage easly.
So no bankrubcy is not a garantied win at all in a war vs a smart hord player that is biger than you

And jes i already fought as bankrupt manchu vs russia in a player game and the russia player was surprised because he though that bankrupt troops do less damage and take more what is a myth

 

[MiniaAr]

Both Europe and Asia will be crowded (40+ players MP game).

I am a good horde player, and a decent MP player, but I've never played the combination of both (Horde in MP). Killing the other hordes quickly was/is my first instinct as well.
I was thinking Aristo -> Economic, so that I could time the first couple of Aristo ideas with a killing strike. Eco later on to reform the government when the borders are more or less settled.

Another question. How should decrease development be used in combination with razing?

 

[magni_]

Both Europe and Asia will be crowded (40+ players MP game).

I am a good horde player, and a decent MP player, but I've never played the combination of both (Horde in MP). Killing the other hordes quickly was/is my first instinct as well.
I was thinking Aristo -> Economic, so that I could time the first couple of Aristo ideas with a killing strike. Eco later on to reform the government when the borders are more or less settled.

Thats in return a realy bad idea
how wil u prevent u from geting killed by a quality+inovative player once u have reformed ?

not is probobobly the answer

 

[MiniaAr]

The current meta (in our group) is more Defensive/Eco then Quality/Innov. Quality/Innov builds are very rare (again, in our group), maybe a couple of Sweden/Brandebourg did it recently. Muscowy, Lithuania, Ottomans, Poland etc... never go for such a build but instead Defensive/Eco, and sometimes Aristo/Eco/Espio for Poland/Lithuania.

Why would it be so good (quality/innov)?

 

[magni_]

the full build is quiality,inovative,offensive,economic
because it has a huge power spike at tech 9 (thats when normaly player border become normal)
and at tech 16(that is normaly when the great power players attempt to kill each other)
what is around the time where most multiplayer get decided on who wins

the reason for that are :
115%discipline
30%combat ability infantry
20% combat ability artillery
30%siege ability
+1 siege

defensice + eco has good morale il give u that, but as soon as players are good enough to not send in all troops at once, morale wil ondly win u the battle but not the war

 

[MiniaAr]

I see. The issue is we have an house rule forcing a diplo idea in the first 4 groups. Thus, this has to be taken into account (hence the Espionnage builds with Aristo)

 

[magni_]

I see. The issue is we have an house rule forcing a diplo idea in the first 4 groups. Thus, this has to be taken into account (hence the Espionnage builds with Aristo)

well inhowse rules wil just delay the power spike by 1 idea groop
also cavalery combat ability stacking can be easly countered by a full backline of canons,what a well cordinated team wil normaly do

 

[Sfan]

I may lack the MP experience, but I fail to see how cav combat ability stacking can have any impact against players who will go with "meta" stacks of 40/0/40 lategame. Sure, you get a small edge midgame, but it's not even guaranteed you can fill your FL with a sufficient number of cav to make it worth, unless you managed to blob early.

 

[MiniaAr]

Ah well, you're right of course, but our MP games usually end at the latest in 1700. Thus, there are no "late game" per se. Our meta is to reach peak power between 1550 and 1650.

Thus, builds like Aristo/Espio/Quality/Eco can shine in such a configuration.

 

[magni.]

well as Poland u can stack Can combat ability, but u can just form Prussia and go quality + innovative and your way stronger