Cradle of Civilisation - Hard Life For Hordes or is it?

[insanebe]

So after looking through the changes at first i thought this would seriously disadvantaging Hordes, now i am not so sure ?

Hordes don't have a huge amount of money due to fielding large cavalry armies so i don't see how they could possibly use the professionalism mechanic as they would have to maintain high maintenance costs.

In addition demolishing forts (to lower Maintenance) lowers professionalism. ( EDIT - apparently this was removed)

And how would hordes pay for level 5 advisers?

Possible answer -


Well, maybe hordes will get enough money from the "exploit development feature" to offset some of these problems, it would also lessen the negative effect development has on horde unity.

I don't have a lot of experience playing as Hordes so what do you think?

 

[Rikissa]

Hordes are still overpowered and the best tags to conquer large swathes of territory or even the world. You should look at what players like MarcoAntonio can do as a horde. If you let your momentum carry you, you basically have unlimited ressources.

 

[netherlink]

Yeah, probably leads to hordes turning every province into 3/3/3 ^^

 

[schondetta]

Your describing hordes in the first 50 years of the game. I don't really have these problems in the mid to late game. If you play them right

 

[magni.]

So after looking through the changes at first i thought this would seriously disadvantaging Hordes, now i am not so sure ?

Hordes don't have a huge amount of money due to fielding large cavalry armies so i don't see how they could possibly use the professionalism mechanic as they would have to maintain high maintenance costs.

In addition demolishing forts (to lower Maintenance) lowers professionalism.

And how would hordes pay for level 5 advisers?

Possible answer -


Well, maybe hordes will get enough money from the "exploit development feature" to offset some of these problems, it would also lessen the negative effect development has on horde unity.

I don't have a lot of experience playing as Hordes so what do you think?

I think exactly the opposite is true
Hordes hugly benefit from the patch because of the 10% more shock damage in Islamic religion that u can invite
also as a horde u really don't wan't to have a adviser over lv 1 any way even if u have the money since u got infinite monarch points once u have tech 5 admin 2
also establish community's wil burn of AE faster what is whats holding back horde the most
also as a hard u tend to not lose as many man as other nations lose infantry so u can keep more drill

not to mention to spread islam to India

 

[raikaria]

1: Stop looking at Professionalism as a must-have. There are bonuses to having low Professionalism and relying on Mercs as well. Drilling only really helps the first battle. Professionalism will usually decay as manpower depletes. A country built for mercs can merc even harder this DLC since low professionalism gives discounts on Mercs. Where you don't want to be is ~50%; the middle ground; where you basically get nothing. This isn't Absolutism where more is always better. A Professional; Drilled army is best in shorter wars. However a less professional army can win a longer war when the Professional army's drill wears off and manpower bleeds; forceing them to rely on Mercs.

Hell; Merc Armies can get 5% Discipline in Age of Reformation; which basically cancels out the 100% professionalism bonus.

2: Ming is nerfed. So that's a buff to every single Horde anywhere near China.

3: There's not really any changes that impact the hordes who worry about Russia; so those are unchanged.

 

[Ismael R Murias]

Hordes can be as rich as any other nation. Their economical strenght relies on trade and looting for the most part. Conquer a good chunk in the russian region early game and set your capital there, then expand and make TCompanies in India, China, Indochina... You don't really make anything from tax due to the high autonomy that tribes give, and production is almost similar until you get enough technologies or build enough manufactories.

 

[MrParadux]

Ming is nerfed. So that's a buff to every single Horde anywhere near China.

I don't quite remember, but how is Ming going to get nerfed?

 

[I'm gaming]

Hordes are still good for SP. But bad at MP and under AI control.

 

[Ismael R Murias]

I don't quite remember, but how is Ming going to get nerfed?

70 Mandate insted of 50 to pass reforms. And more frecuent(?) negative events with low Mandate.

 

[Mingmung]

Which hordes? There aren't as much left

 

[Sfan]

I don't see Hordes becoming weaker.

Professionalism seems unattainable in any WC-like scenario, it is decreased by mercs and deleting forts which everyone who WCs does. And from the streams I've seen drill decreases way too fast after first battle to be worth the many ducats it costs you early game, Then from midgame you won't be able to tank it because a stack should not stay inactive anymore once you hit the 17th century. I may be wrong and drill may be the new OP with Manpower and Manpower recovery speed becoming OP bonuses, but I tend to think that most SP blobbers will go with 0 professionalism and use the merc bonus instead, even if doing a Tall Prussia with max drill and max professionalism could be hilarious (and with quality, offensive, defensive, economic, religious and innovative to get every possible military bonus). So actually, the decrease in the cost of mercs will help Hordes and allow them to rely on full merc infantry to siege earlier, while keeping their precious Manpower to reinforce their precious cav.

As for level 5 advisors, noone will pay for them early on except Ming, and then it's just a question of conquering your way into being rich, which Hordes can do very easily. Hordes have one of the easiest access to excellent trade routes and there are 3 goldmines in Horde land.

As many of the Hordes are Sunni, they benefit from the Sunni buffs, and the non-Sunni ones are near Ming and benefit from their nerfs.

I also noticed far too many armies drilling near a border on CoC streams, if that's a trend you can stackwipe many armies on day 1, which will make so many early wars easier (the first war against Muscovy, the first war against Ming, and non-hordes stuff like the English war to PU France).

Also, ex-Hordes are easier: Timurids AQ and QQ have been buffed pretty hard now that they're a lot more stable (PDX tries to make us think that Timurids are now weaker, but I've seen them survive while it literally never happened in AI hands and Normal Difficulty, and I think a player can manage their vassals early).

 

[Dakka]

Exploiting development as a horde has fairly significant potential from what I can tell. As far as professionalism goes? Eh, probably not

 

[bly08]

From what has been revealed thus far I'm guessing drilling will be pointless for hordes and professionalism will be ignored. By the time hordes can recruit mass mercs none of the bonuses will matter.

 

[Golladan]

In addition demolishing forts (to lower Maintenance) lowers professionalism.

it is decreased by mercs and deleting forts which everyone who WCs does.

Buildings don't affect Professionalism.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-of-october-2017.1051799/page-4#post-23432668

 

[Zwirbaum]

Deleting Forts doesn't lower profesionalism in any way.

 

[Sfan]

It seems it was changed, yes.

 

[Vivi_]

In my opinion hordes having trouble to rise up any kind of professionamism makes sense.

I mean, we are talking about hordes, not Swiss mercenaries.

 

[insanebe]

Ah so most people would ignore professionalism as a horde, interesting.
Like i said i don't know Hordes

 

[netherlink]

It's not like the Hode's horsemen didn't know what they do. One could say they where "highly professional mounted slayer" ^^
It still is kind of a nerf, since Horde's will profit neither from high professionalism, since they will only very late be able to afford so, nor from low prof, since they don't need and can't afford mercs in a way it's making a difference...
NOT saying they will be "unplayable" afterwards ^^

And, like i said, Horde's will probably turning every province to 1/1/1 now, what i feel kinda sad about, but don't know how it plays out yet.