Coups in the other Countries

[Orinsul]

IM nopt going to give another example, i can think of a couple but im not going to say them
because specific examples are the bane of this forum and you damn well know it

Ive given theoretical examples, situtations when the player might need this. Theyre good enough

If you mention something historic too many people start endless quibbling, they stop even pretending to talk about the game mechanics and just gone on and on about some historic happenence that none but cares about and then the thread gets closed for Off-Topic discussion. You bring up an example, even an off-hand example and it writes off the whole thread, LOOK at how mexico was first mentioned, I SAID it didnt fit and since then even though from the phrasing and it clearly has nothing to do with it, its all anyones talked about.

NOT the mechanics, NOT the Game, Not the situtations mentioned in the intial post or ANY that you might be faced with in game, mainly your puppets becoming insufferable to you and you not been able to do anything about. JUST quibbling about history.

History is not going to piss you off when youre playing the game, History is not going to ruin a game for you or force you to re-load to an earlier save and try again
Your dominions going communist, WILL
So im NOT going to list history examples
and you shouldnt either
and if you do
i'll bloody well hit you
i have no idea where you live but i but still shut it, or one day i'll recognise you in the street and kick your shin and you'll have damn well been warned
and deserve it too

TALK ABOUT THE GAME
this is a forum about the game
if you cant talk about the game
then take your lips and button them

 

[ComradeOm]

TALK ABOUT THE GAME

Okay. Victoria 2 is a grand strategy game set in the Victorian era. When playing it I expect to face challenges and tools appropriate to the era

In the particular case that you have provided, ie a satellite annoying you, I see no reason why you simply couldn't declare war and send in the troops. What you should not be able to do is employ the CIA/KGB to stage a bloodless coup to install a more ideologically amenable president. That was not how Victorian governments did business and so I see no reason why it should be present in the game

 

[Orinsul]

SO you have to break the alliance, break the dominion, declare war, win a total victory, then what?
take about three wars to annex it? then re-release it?
change government peace term and then only get it back as a only satilite?
and what does that do for your badboy?
basically, it ruins your game, for something you ought to have the right to do anyway

And Victorian governments did work like this, its whats meant by Gunboat diplomacy in some old fifth form textbooks
just because these days modern examples are more famous

 

[Andrelvis]

SO you have to break the alliance, break the dominion, declare war, win a total victory, then what?
take about three wars to annex it? then re-release it?
change government peace term and then only get it back as a only satilite?
and what does that do for your badboy?
basically, it ruins your game, for something you ought to have the right to do anyway

And Victorian governments did work like this, its whats meant by Gunboat diplomacy in some old fifth form textbooks
just because these days modern examples are more famous

A war aim to change party in power or regime would do what you wish.

 

[Orinsul]

it would do one thing, and if you read what i said you'll see i said that
and i also said how that wouldnt work
because the cost would be so much higher than is even slightly plausible
read what you quoted, and you'll see why a change government isnt even a little what i wish

 

[Andrelvis]

it would do one thing, and if you read what i said you'll see i said that
and i also said how that wouldnt work
because the cost would be so much higher than is even slightly plausible
read what you quoted, and you'll see why a change government isnt even a little what i wish

I read, otherwise I wouldn't have quoted it. You want to make a satellite that has gone communist not be communist anymore. Well, with a war aim for government change (rather than having to annex and release), that would be solved.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

it would do one thing, and if you read what i said you'll see i said that
and i also said how that wouldnt work
because the cost would be so much higher than is even slightly plausible
read what you quoted, and you'll see why a change government isnt even a little what i wish

Why are you so fixated that it would not work?

In Vic1 you could demand "satellization" in exchange for peace, without having to annex the country. It did not change government type in Vic1, but I would be surprised if they did not change that for Vic2. The topic has been brought up repeatedly in the forum.

 

[airpirate]

If a country is your satellite, then by definition your are by far more powerful than it. Therefore, the costs of declaring war, as long as the is a appropriate casus belli, should be minimal. As long as their is a casus belli that you can use against governments of a different ideology that are in your SOI, and it costs you little to no badboy to change the government type and re-create the satellite/dominion, you should be fine.

 

[OHgamer]

how does the satellite become communist?

In V1, if a communist regime (or any regime for that matter) was installed via revolution, all alliances that nation had would be broken, including IIRC any ties of satellite/dominion status. Basically the people of your satellite have just given the middle finger to the master nation via revolution, and so the only solution I think should be war to reinstall the old tributary regime. Or better yet, if you see your satellite/dominion in trouble, send some of your forces in to help prop up the ruling regime that is your lackey. Satellites and dominions allow military access, and it is always better to nip revolts in the bud before they get too extensive. If you see one of your satellties or dominions break out in revolts, take pre-emptive action by supporting your partner regime, don't abandon them to their fate and then have to try and pick up the pieces later.

I can't recall what happens though if the people of a satellite peacefully elect a communist/fascist/anarcho regime into power. Since power was achieved peacefully I don't believe old alliances were broken, though here I'd argue perhaps they should be, since a non-status quo party has won election, they should have the option to renounce the ties that bind. Master nation would then have the option to try and reimpose those ties via regime change.

But of course satellite/dominion is something more concrete than what I imagine an SoI relationship to be. there the "vassal" has more room for maneuver, and there are plenty of examples of those nations telling their supposed dominant partner to shove off - with the result usually being military intervention and the establishment of a more structured relationship between master and vassal.

 

[Cinéad IV]

I can't recall what happens though if the people of a satellite peacefully elect a communist/fascist/anarcho regime into power.

If memory serves, nothing - you just carry on as a sattelite. Even if the form of govenrment changes, I don't think you can break those ties. It's only if your government changes by armed revolution that you lose the sattelite/master relationship.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Well there ought to be a generic event that causes a dominion to break free some time after it elects a communist government... and that would then allow the master to declare war.

 

[ComradeOm]

basically, it ruins your game, for something you ought to have the right to do anyway

How on earth does DoWing a small satellite ruin the game for you? Its no more difficult than DoWing a vassal in EUIII. As others have noted, there are much easier ways to ensure that this is a cheap action that do not involve a whole new game feature

And Victorian governments did work like this, its whats meant by Gunboat diplomacy in some old fifth form textbooks

You're missing the point that gunboat diplomacy involved gunboats. If the victim refused to comply then war ensued. Even then I can't recall any examples of a head of state being deposed simply because the Brits parked a cruiser outside port

 

[Orinsul]

To get a dominion back, you have to completely annex it and release it again, unless that dominion is of an annexable size that would take a long time.

Dominions shouldnt be able to make large-scale government reforms, but we all know in the game they will be able to. Realisitically, in order for say, Canada to change its system of government it should have to be though revolution or by the government declaring war on Britain.
There would be no legal way to do it, as the english Houses would have the authority to prevent it. BUT IF it did happen they should also have the authority to repair it.

And Should Britain stop being a monarchy [Say Republicianism wins out, infinite possibilities of alt-history of course], it should have the authority to enforce the same reform on its colonies.

The most pratical and generic [that is to say not specific to one nation] is for a diplomatic or spy action to perform a coup in a country you have authority over.

 

[Andrelvis]

To get a dominion back, you have to completely annex it and release it again, unless that dominion is of an annexable size that would take a long time.

Dominions shouldnt be able to make large-scale government reforms, but we all know in the game they will be able to. Realisitically, in order for say, Canada to change its system of government it should have to be though revolution or by the government declaring war on Britain.
There would be no legal way to do it, as the english Houses would have the authority to prevent it. BUT IF it did happen they should also have the authority to repair it.

And Should Britain stop being a monarchy [Say Republicianism wins out, infinite possibilities of alt-history of course], it should have the authority to enforce the same reform on its colonies.

The most pratical and generic [that is to say not specific to one nation] is for a diplomatic or spy action to perform a coup in a country you have authority over.

Sticking a bunch of soldiers, occupying their capital, and forcing them to do what you wish seems way more practical to me than planning a coup, at least for the time period.

 

[Petrarca]

The most pratical and generic [that is to say not specific to one nation] is for a diplomatic or spy action to perform a coup in a country you have authority over.

Andrelvis has it on the nose: the way these things were done was through some discretionary shelling and landing the soldiers & Marines. Countries of the day didn't even have intelligence agencies.

 

[Emperor Walter]

You're missing the point that gunboat diplomacy involved gunboats. If the victim refused to comply then war ensued. Even then I can't recall any examples of a head of state being deposed simply because the Brits parked a cruiser outside port

The Kingdom of Hawaii was overthrown because revolutionaries seized the barracks across from the Queens Palace, then to ensure the Royal Troops didn't counterattack, they asked the commander of the USS Boston, which was moored off shore in Honolulu, to send the 1,000 marines on board ashore. The marines declared that they were protecting American citizens, and therefore prevented the Royal troops for fighting back, because of the fear that the Marines would intervene. This was clearly not a war however. Hawaii wasn't annexed for another 5 years, and the only casualty was one sheriff, who was shot and wounded by the rebels. Wasn't exactly a revolution either, the rebels did not win through superiour strength or crushing the Royal Forces, but because of the intervention of the United States and the USS Boston.

 

[Earl Uhtred]

Japan also 'couped' Korea, but without much finesse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Myeongseong#The_Eulmi_Incident

 

[Aeon221]

Andrelvis has it on the nose: the way these things were done was through some discretionary shelling and landing the soldiers & Marines. Countries of the day didn't even have intelligence agencies.

That's not entirely the case. For example, there was the Political and Secret Department, that, for the Brits, gathered an enormous amount of information from all sorts of different nations. Reading that information will cost you several thousand dollars.

http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpre...gement/indiaofficearrangedrecord.html#LPSHead



http://books.google.com/books?id=-s...&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Here's a google books link with more general information.

 

[Mrdie]

Cases like the one Earl noted in-re Japan trying to turn Korea into a protectorate (which it achieved in 1905) were quite rare in the game's timeframe. A foreign power getting a few generals on its payroll to maybe assassinate a ruler (the extent it could go IMO without being weird) would be a rather odd feature considering that when Japan, with Japanese men, did what it did it elicited international outrage.

I don't see the point of it being in the game, really. Most coups and such during this period were in Latin America and were due to hectic internal affairs rather than being foreign-backed. If you wanted to get a government that supported you in the timeframe, you needed military force.

I mean, I'm recoiling at the thought of a situation akin to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, only it'd be Austria and a satellite Hungary.

"Those damn Hungarian noblemen have defied Vienna for too long!" *Austria hires some Hungarian generals to murder the entire regional parliament*
*New Hungarian noblemen fumble around a bit and alienate Hungarians through bending over backwards for the Austrians, a peasant revolt ensues*
"Those damn new Hungarian noblemen are screwing things up!"
*Austria invades, deposes the new Hungarian noblemen and replaces them with others*
*Newer Hungarian noblemen stand around with their pants down as peasants engulf the countryside*
*Austrians occupy Hungary and brutally suppress the peasants*
*The peasants wage a people's war with covert support from Italy, and eventually wind up expelling the Austrian colonialist aggressors from their homeland*
*Hungary becomes a war-ridden wasteland after Italy stops caring about matters in Hungary*

I mean, it just isn't right.

 

[Lord_D]

As long as there are mechanisms in the game causing a satellite to make an attempt at freedom from it's master, and a casus belli and war goal for the master to undo that, I think a lot of the issues can be handled in a good way.