Counts per Duchy?

[Thrumdi]

Playing as the King of Sweden, I recently took Viken from Norway, which gives me the three counties of a de jure duchy. My son (not the heir) is currently the Duke and holds one county, with a non-dynasty, non-relative as the 2nd count.

My question is: who should I grant the 3rd county to?

1) Myself (the King).
2) An underage son with no other holdings.
3) An adult son with other holdings, but none in the Duchy.
4) The Duke who already holds one country in the Duchy.
5) The non-related Count with one county in Duchy already.
6) To a non-related courtier with no other holdings.

I don't yet understand the dynamics of how these choices will play out. For example, what happens if I hold a county in one of my son's duchies? Or, if one of my sons holds a county in his brother's duchy. Does this put you in a weak position, holding titles below those of lesser rank, who you in fact out-rank?

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

I have a general rule I follow, All counts are invited via intruige screen. At no time ever will any family member hold land in my realm. Not worth it to me, there has never been a game with family in my realm that they did not cause riots. I will point out, i do not play the vast holdings side of this game, my realm is 10-14 counties, and the only Duke i allow in my realm now is me. I tried to rp the family game, the family does not rp the way i like. The game has some issues in that respect. My opinion is never hand a county to anyone who has claims elsewhere, hence the noble invite.

 

[stars2heaven]

You are not put into any weaker position holding titles that are part of someone elses dejure territory. However, you will probably get a relation hit since they want control of that county for themselves. It all depends on what you want. Do you need the extra strength of that county or do you prefer the best possible relations with the duke who would normally own/control that county? If your relations are already good, it doesn't matter. If they hate you it will help quite alot.

As far as who to give it to it also depends. Family can be good depending on the situation...and is normally better anyways. But if they have claims on your titles they will not be good candidates at all. (unless they are your heir) Giving the holding to someone who already has holdings is almost always a bad idea unless they are your heir. (meaning you will get them back at some point). You should try to make it so that your vassals only own a single province. Dukes should own their dejure territory and no more and own only one province themselves. Same for everyone else. This will make managing revolts much much easier.

 

[JonStryker]

I have a general rule I follow, All counts are invited via intruige screen. At no time ever will any family member hold land in my realm. Not worth it to me, there has never been a game with family in my realm that they did not cause riots. I will point out, i do not play the vast holdings side of this game, my realm is 10-14 counties, and the only Duke i allow in my realm now is me. I tried to rp the family game, the family does not rp the way i like. The game has some issues in that respect. My opinion is never hand a county to anyone who has claims elsewhere, hence the noble invite.

Sorry, but that's just bad advice. Family members usually are pretty good vassals. I personally try to only land family members or people who are matri-married to kinswomen. There's all sorts of positive effects if you prefer kinsmen. Elective works like a charm, most factions are just laughable weak, etc.

In your particular game I would either keep the county for myself (in case the demesne limit isn't already reached) or land my landless underage son. Keep in mind that you can't decide who he's going to marry if you land him before he comes of age.
I wouldn't ever give a second county to some unrelated count. If I'm completely out of kinspeople I usually land landless celibate people and hope to inherit their stuff.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

I find that far-removed family members (dynasty members get the Kinship bonus) without ANY claims to my lands make the best vassals. Just my opinion.

 

[Thrumdi]

Thank you for the advice. This clears up many questions, but also brings up a few more.

In what circumstances would it be good to grant two counties to the same person in a duchy? To the Duke who already holds one if he is a member of your dynasty (heir or non-heir)?

Would any problems arise if you granted a county to a son who already had holdings in another duchy?

 

[Mods]

Yeah if you land 4 brothers who will all have the same claims you're going to have issue, but if you land 4 'kinsmen' without any claims at all it's incredibly stable! Also don't forget to check for claims they might still inherit!

 

[Ness_Uno]

Would any problems arise if you granted a county to a son who already had holdings in another duchy?

There would probably be war at some point, and one of them--either the duke or your son--would lose something. That's my experience anyway.

I've a a lot of success with keeping the integrity of duchy de jure lines as clean as possible. If you want to keep the county in the family, just keep it. The -10 relations hit is easily surmountable. Or revoke the duchy--if free--and give that to your son along with the county.

 

[JonStryker]

Thank you for the advice. This clears up many questions, but also brings up a few more.

In what circumstances would it be good to grant two counties to the same person in a duchy? To the Duke who already holds one if he is a member of your dynasty (heir or non-heir)?

The only "problem" that would arise is that you'll have a stronger duke-vassal. Still I prefer to have one county per count/duke. When there was a big conquest and I've run out of kinsmen to give counties to, I might give a family-member a second county if said county is within his duchy. If the duke already has 2+ sons I usually give that second county to the duke's second son.
I love to trap my vassals in Gavelkind meaning I never rise above Medium CA. In that setup I have sometimes given duchy + all counties to one of my sons. If you're lucky Gavelkind splits the counties in the following years.

 

[macphineas]

Thank you for the advice. This clears up many questions, but also brings up a few more.

In what circumstances would it be good to grant two counties to the same person in a duchy? To the Duke who already holds one if he is a member of your dynasty (heir or non-heir)?

Would any problems arise if you granted a county to a son who already had holdings in another duchy?

I find that it's better to have stronger dukes, especially in territories with revolts, than to spread the counties around. Too much intriguing and revolting otherwise. Just give a family member (or courtier matri-married to a family member) the whole duchy. Easier to deal with, the new duke likes you more, he'll be stronger to put down rebels, and there won't be constant plotting to take his duchy.

As for your son with holdings in another duchy, just give him that duchy, or at least enough counties in it so that he or his heirs will eventually overthrow their lord. You never want dukes with land outside their de jure area, all they ever do is fight each other over it.

 

[Heartsbane]

Don't give him the county and don't keep it for yourself either. He will have the desires Duchy trait with a -25 opinion modifier if you hold or if you give it away and keep it as your direct vassal. What to do with it really depends how you wish to proceed. You could create a prince bishopric and transfer the vassal to your son ensuring that he has a nice stable vassal. You could give it to a neighboring Duke and watch the two fight each other (assuming you have low CA) for the county claim. Keep in mind that if you give away the Count title it will still be considered your direct vassal even if it is part de jure Duchy so you will have have to transfer the vassal to him to avoid the desires duchy penalty.

 

[Mods]

I find that it's better to have stronger dukes, especially in territories with revolts, than to spread the counties around. Too much intriguing and revolting otherwise. Just give a family member (or courtier matri-married to a family member) the whole duchy. Easier to deal with, the new duke likes you more, he'll be stronger to put down rebels, and there won't be constant plotting to take his duchy.

As for your son with holdings in another duchy, just give him that duchy, or at least enough counties in it so that he or his heirs will eventually overthrow their lord. You never want dukes with land outside their de jure area, all they ever do is fight each other over it.

I've grown to like the 1 county per person rule with the family member count getting the duchy. Why? If the duke rebels you can take his duchy and give it to one of his vassals, without fear of him taking it back right after
Also you can make the counts the best stewards in your realm which will make your culture spread a lot quicker (at least until those super stewards die). Religions will convert faster too since you can only convert your personal demesne.

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Sorry, but that's just bad advice. Family members usually are pretty good vassals. I personally try to only land family members or people who are matri-married to kinswomen. There's all sorts of positive effects if you prefer kinsmen. Elective works like a charm, most factions are just laughable weak, etc.

In your particular game I would either keep the county for myself (in case the demesne limit isn't already reached) or land my landless underage son. Keep in mind that you can't decide who he's going to marry if you land him before he comes of age.
I wouldn't ever give a second county to some unrelated count. If I'm completely out of kinspeople I usually land landless celibate people and hope to inherit their stuff.

You can disagree, and he can ignore me, it's all good. I still will never allow a family memeber land anywhere near my Realm, I do not have your luck with family members, no matter how far back on the tree they are. I with my noble inivite strat can go over a century without revolts. I wish they would do as they do for you, I would prefer it, but my games never play out that way. *shurg* Could be things I do, I am happy with my no claim nobles.

 

[icon41gimp]

I've grown to like the 1 county per person rule with the family member count getting the duchy. Why? If the duke rebels you can take his duchy and give it to one of his vassals, without fear of him taking it back right after
Also you can make the counts the best stewards in your realm which will make your culture spread a lot quicker (at least until those super stewards die). Religions will convert faster too since you can only convert your personal demesne.

The problem with dukes having only 1 county is that they generally cannot raise enough troops to stop revolts by a count. You'll get into a situation where the war drags on forever because neither side can siege the other's holdings.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

I want my dukes to hold as much of their duchy as possible. And not one county outside it.

My thinking is this makes it easier for them to upgrade castles. A few counties is enough income to actually afford the upper level improvements. If they have one castle, upgrades are slower. In theory, it shouldn't matter -- X income time X castles ought to break out the same. But in practice, it seems to make a noticeable difference. Plus they do a better job rebel bashing. And I don't want my vassals weak and fighting each other. If they revolt, they're all going to do it in a big group anyway so it doesn't really matter. I want them strong enough to give me lots of levies so I can bash Mongols and Aztecs.

 

[Prime624]

I tried to rp the family game, the family does not rp the way i like. The game has some issues in that respect.

Definitely! It ruins the whole family mechanic when the only person who doesn't love you is your uncle.

Sorry, but that's just bad advice. Family members usually are pretty good vassals.

Are you playing the same game? Any family member vassal of mine has either been my worst vassal, or an average one, never better.

 

[James_Manring]

Are you playing the same game? Any family member vassal of mine has either been my worst vassal, or an average one, never better.

It depends on the stats and the grooming. If you have raised the family carefully from nothing you will all have some of the good traits in common. Combine that with a trend towards Crusading with as much of the family as possible and having Kin vassals becomes a bonus instead of a curse. However, the flip side of that is that if you do not stay on top of education and Dynasty management or if you get unlucky with your ruler having bad traits and stats you can easily see your whole game explode in an instant.

I recently have had a fun game in France. I started as a single Count. 190 years later and I was the Occitain Duke of Toulouse and Normandy being crowned King. I had spread my Dynasty to several other Counties and Duchies, but not enough to say I significantly had put down my opposition. My maimed King dies days after assuming the usurped throne, leaving it to a genius 10 year old with bad stats and a destiny for bad traits no matter what I did. It was the worst luck ever. 9 years of riding that bull and I was forced to abdicate to my landed younger brother, who thanks to Gavelkind became a Duke. This left me with no vassals and only the direct castles I held before. A year and a half plus one carriage off the side of a ravine later and I'm back on the throne. One might argue that without the Dynasty plotting I would not have had such problems, but it was the de Bourgougne Duke of Burgundy that caused all of the headache. My Dynasty joined in and granting lands provided the heir to abdicate too, but it also provided me with the conspirators my unlucky young lad needed to murder his way back onto his throne. I was at the teetering point where his stats and his short reign malus combined with his traits made his position untenable. Once he came of age and was able to take the throne back via a second inheritance, it was possible to maintain the realm but only with careful treading and constant relations building. From then on I was stuck in a position where I could not spread my Dynasty as much as I needed to make them worthwhile to me and prevent non-family from forming large rebellious power blocks, but I could not survive without them either. I eventually was able to banish two very powerful vassals and spread their lands around before I died. This ensured the Dynasty finally broke over the power peak to feel secure and that no one vassal was strong enough to carry a lone faction. Although, that still does not prevent a bad character from causing them to replace you with your cousins.

 

[unmerged(605409)]

I usually pick who ever has the highest opinion of me, lowest intrigue, and one that isn't a family member.

 

[Talq]

I'd tend toward 6) but 4) is also an option (moreso if he wasn't a son, and so looking at 2 generations of title claimant). Most of the others are going to start a war, probably every generation.

If you give a count more holdings than the duke, that count will be plotting to usurp faster than you can say "plot to usurp".

 

[JonStryker]

You can disagree, and he can ignore me, it's all good. I still will never allow a family memeber land anywhere near my Realm, I do not have your luck with family members, no matter how far back on the tree they are. I with my noble inivite strat can go over a century without revolts. I wish they would do as they do for you, I would prefer it, but my games never play out that way. *shurg* Could be things I do, I am happy with my no claim nobles.

If it's luck then I'm a very lucky guy If you've grown strong enough family members tend to not make many problems. Gigantic elective family-run empires are pretty OP.
I didn't have faction wars in the last 200 years: http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/9775/dynastyo.jpg
Note that most of those nearly 3000 family member have their own county somewhere