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tywinzo

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Count palatine is my favourite title - so how about adding some titles with historical precedent in-game?

It is a historical word that lived ever since the roman empire (latin: palatinus, english: palace), with various differences in style. E.g. it comes from ancient time (comes [companion]), pre-feudal (comes palatinus, paladin peers), feudal (count palatine, pfalzgraf, papal titles, etc), and even in modern time (Hermann Göring was a paladin)! For instance the word "paladin" ultimately stems from the same word and carries a kind of dignity.

Quoting a part from wikipedia: "By the High Middle Ages, the title "count" had become increasingly common, to the point that both great magnates who ruled regions that were the size of duchies, and local castle-lords, might style themselves "count". As the great magnates began to centralize their power over their local castle-lords, they felt the need to assert the difference between themselves and these minor "counts". Therefore, several of these great magnates began styling themselves "Count Palatine", signifying great counts ruling regions equivalent to duchies, such as the Counts Palatine of Champagne in the 13th century." And if I do not mis-remember reading in other literature, the title eventually also got partially inflated, leading former counts palatine to change their title back (!) to simply "count" to stand out or elevate their own status.

In other words, these people were more or less duke-level. They were entrusted much real-political power and in CK2 are simply called "count", while in real-life they were much heavier, and really called count palatine and similiar fashions (depending on location it could differ, it could be for example "earl palatine" in "England"). Some of them were imperial palatines or otherwise very powerful, e.g. palatine of hungary.

I know that there are MODs out there that already fixes some of this (I have one myself, and there is HIP that also does a good job), but e.g. title modding only works so well if e.g. a theocracy switches to take the title, and it kind of should be supported by the base game. It would be cool to see more nuanced titles, and while at it, also throw in margraves, marquis, march, etc. For flavour.
 

Aardvark Bellay

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As an honorary title for multiple province counts maybe ?

Only to plot for a province against your multi-count vassal right after handing out that title....:eek::cool:


What did you have in mind ?
 

JonStryker

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Having more nuanced titles in vanilla would of course be welcome :)

But all these titles might derive from the same Latin word but are not alike at all.
- Pfalzgraf is a title that gradually became equal to Fürst (prince). But in the beginning palatines (Pfalzgrafen) only managed the various departments of the royal household. Centuries later the title was something that it wasn't intended for originally.
- The Palatine (nádor) of Hungary was the highest-ranking office in the Kingdom of Hungary. But not a feudal title with vassals and so on. From 1848 on it was a symbolical title that was held by a cadet branch of the Imperial house.
- Hermann Göring was just called "Paladin" since it essentially means servant (at least in German): "First servant of the Führer". Not because this was some kind of grantable title.
 
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tywinzo

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But all these titles might derive from the same Latin word but are not alike at all.

Yes, well - just like "duke" meant different things in history (comes from latin dux, meaning "leader"), i.e. any kind of military leader, first without any official rank. Then later _with_ official rank. Then later _with_ held lands. So it is the same word, where the historical precedent is from where it draws dignitity/rank, but it has been "implemented" with different formal titles. Just like e.g. paladin during the twelwe peers draws it dignity from the word palatinus since that had a long, historical precedent of official positions (e.g. comes palatinus during the Merovingian period). Or the same way that march (borderlands), marshall, markgraf, margrave, marquis, marquess, marchis are related, it refers to something close to the frontier but of course has different specific use in each case, some are higher titles than others. So I agree and you are right in that the specific titles are different, but to think of paladin as something that is something "not at all like" a palatinus is wrong - the choice of word is deliberately chosen because the dignity it carries from historical precedents.

Or Caesar, Kaiser, Tsar. All very different. Different area, different time period, different cultures, different implementations. But really aims to emulate the same thing.

Most titles also had some degree of self-styling and innate claim in them, especially lower titles. Titles were dynamic and an ever-changing thing, so we should also not think of them as something static through the centuries.
 
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tywinzo

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As an honorary title for multiple province counts maybe ?

Only to plot for a province against your multi-count vassal right after handing out that title....:eek::cool:


What did you have in mind ?


That's actually a good question. It depends on how far we wish to go in customization. The coolest thing would of course be if we could have it gradually grow with time. E.g. it starts out as a a pure military title, then maybe honorary title, then formal title, then land-holding title, and so forth. But in CK2, which aims to be historic (I hope), tying this in with the Merovingian/Carolingian dynasties is also a good option, e.g. they would be the first to be able to grant them. Maybe with relations to member of that dynasty or via some title, those titles could be passed on. For instance, the counts of champagne were counts palatine, ultimately related to the Carolingian, IIRC.

I'd also like to see the counts paladine appear in the holy roman empire, but admittedly I'm worse with the history of the Holy Roman Empire than France. I think it was just re-instated (out of the blue?), again to give the title prestige of its historical predecessors.
 

Chlodio

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The coolest thing would of course be if we could have it gradually grow with time.

As much as I'm for historical accuracy, I think such complexity would be a waste of effort. How about making it a simple localization mechanic similar to the petty kings? When non-sovereign count creates himself a duke, his ducal title gets called "county palatine", but if he becomes independent, the title changes to a duke.
 

Tryvenyal

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As much as I'm for historical accuracy, I think such complexity would be a waste of effort. How about making it a simple localization mechanic similar to the petty kings? When non-sovereign count creates himself a duke, his ducal title gets called "county palatine", but if he becomes independent, the title changes to a duke.

How do that makes sense? An independent duke is a Petty King and a vassal duke is a duke. Is not a "Count palatine" equevelant of a "multicount"? Ie, a direct vassal to a king or emperer with more than 1 county?

OP: what are you after? A localization that adresses a multicount with "Count palatine" instead of "count"? In CK, lesser landowners are not counts. They are Barons and are addressed as such. So assume you are only after to differ between how single- counts and multi-counts with no duke as superior are addressed, right? Or how would the minor title work?
 

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How do that makes sense? An independent duke is a Petty King and a vassal duke is a duke. Is not a "Count palatine" equevelant of a "multicount"? Ie, a direct vassal to a king or emperer with more than 1 county?

Let me spoon-feed it... That way would essentially be a depiction of:

Therefore, several of these great magnates began styling themselves "Count Palatine", signifying great counts ruling regions equivalent to duchies, such as the Counts Palatine of Champagne in the 13th century.

It doesn't have anything to do with the petty king-mechanic. If count palatine becomes sovereign, the naming mechanic would simply turn off.

No. They were not equivalent of "multi-counts". As the quote says, in essence, they were dukes with no formal title of duke, thus doesn't depicting them as such make the most sense?

The idea is to separate the vassals who received their ducal title from their liege and the vassals with a self-created ducal title.
 

Tryvenyal

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No. They were not equivalent of "multi-counts". As the quote says, in essence, they were dukes with no formal title of duke, thus doesn't depicting them as such make the most sense?

And so are "multicounts".. I don't get the different. Niether "Count palatine" nor "multicounts" are dukes. They both wish they were and might outpower dukes but they are not dukes. In CK terms, what would be a count palatine, in your opinion?
 

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And so are "multicounts".. I don't get the different. Niether "Count palatine" nor "multicounts" are dukes. They both wish they were and might outpower dukes but they are not dukes. In CK terms, what would be a count palatine, in your opinion?

*facepalm*

That is what I been trying to explain... Say Count Bob is a vassal of France, he clicks the button to form the Duchy of Normandy, normally he would receive the Duchy of Normandy and become the Duke of Normandy, but with this mechanic, he instead gets the County Palatine of Normandy and becomes the Count Palatine of Normandy. It is a ducal rank title, the only difference is the name.
 

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Counts Palatine, but also Margraves, Landgraves, Marquesses and also most Princes (Fürsten) would be a great addition, but to do these justice a new (sub-)tier might be best. That seems unlikely to happen, maybe one day in CKIII.
Perhaps a special Honorary Title attached to the territory, not the ruler, that is a conqueror from the same culture and/or religion will not only take the territory, but also this specific Honorary Title.
Arguably Count Palatine should generate more prestige than Marquess or Landgrave; for instance in the HRE originally each Stem duchy only had one Count Palatine, Landgraves and especially Margraves were more common. That should also be reflected in the number of available honorary titles, which can be granted of each type. For the HRE that would be from rarest to most common Count Palatine (Pfalzgraf)Landgrave*/Margrave* and Prince ((Reichsfürst) Fürst). Though the latter would be an ordinary Honorary title available for those counts, which did not manage to acquire the title of Count Palatine, Landgrave or Margrave, nor did they manage to get promoted to a duke.
(*= there an additional geographical restriction would make sense, powerful Border Counts can become Margraves, powerful Counts in the Interior can become Landgraves; however there should be a limit on how many of those can be granted)
 

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Counts Palatine, but also Margraves, Landgraves, Marquesses and also most Princes (Fürsten) would be a great addition, but to do these justice a new (sub-)tier might be best. That seems unlikely to happen, maybe one day in CKIII.

If these existed ingame, in whatever meaning or extent, it would be fantastic. I love the immersion of things like this. And I find it's a great compromise between variety but also the every-culture-has-a-different-word-for-King that is found in HIP or CK2+ (can't remember which) - Rey/Roi/Konig is a bit much for me personally, as they are literally direct translations. The other examples are not quite.

Other similar titles that could be implemented (either by decision or otherwise.. the devs were talking about some of these in previous comments/DDs)

- Have Great Duke / Grand Duke be an actual title ingame, rather than just in the demesne limit tooltip
- Arch-Duke (limited ot Austria or otherwise)
- High King (for Irish culture kings of Ireland)
- Marquess is too cool so it needs to be mentioned twice
- Voivode maybe?
 

Tryvenyal

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*facepalm*

That is what I been trying to explain... Say Count Bob is a vassal of France, he clicks the button to form the Duchy of Normandy, normally he would receive the Duchy of Normandy and become the Duke of Normandy, but with this mechanic, he instead gets the County Palatine of Normandy and becomes the Count Palatine of Normandy. It is a ducal rank title, the only difference is the name.

I disagree. Count Palatine is NOT equal to duke. It´s less than duke. In my world it´s something in between Count and Duke. Someone with too much power to be adressed Count but with to less influence to be addressed Duke. Though, it´s someone playing in the same arena as the dukes.

Another view could be to adress a western Europe Viceroyal duke or Feudal Elective duke "Count Palatine" but that is fiction.
 

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I disagree. Count Palatine is NOT equal to duke. It´s less than duke. In my world it´s something in between Count and Duke. Someone with too much power to be adressed Count but with to less influence to be addressed Duke. Though, it´s someone playing in the same arena as the dukes.

Another view could be to adress a western Europe Viceroyal duke or Feudal Elective duke "Count Palatine" but that is fiction.

One of the issues is that if someone wanted to put Landgrave, Count Palatines etc into the game, you'd have to find some sort of logic for it. And semi-tiers aren't a thing that is possible in the game, so you'd either have to accept them as Duchy tier, or Count tier. Some of the point of Count Palatines are the fact they are of a higher rank than Count, so it seems to make the most sense to put them as Duchy tier.
 

Tryvenyal

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One of the issues is that if someone wanted to put Landgrave, Count Palatines etc into the game, you'd have to find some sort of logic for it. And semi-tiers aren't a thing that is possible in the game, so you'd either have to accept them as Duchy tier, or Count tier. Some of the point of Count Palatines are the fact they are of a higher rank than Count, so it seems to make the most sense to put them as Duchy tier.

Ah, but I don't suggest them to be an own tier, all I suggest is how to address mighty counts :) Actually, a count who is direct vassal of a king or hgher who is considered a powerfull vassal(conclave) might be adressed Count Palatine? :) That should be solvable with localization alone - almost. :)
 

Tryvenyal

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That is what I been trying to explain... Say Count Bob is a vassal of France, he clicks the button to form the Duchy of Normandy, normally he would receive the Duchy of Normandy and become the Duke of Normandy, but with this mechanic, he instead gets the County Palatine of Normandy and becomes the Count Palatine of Normandy. It is a ducal rank title, the only difference is the name.

So. No more vassal dukes in France? That´s all you suggesting? All vassal dukes are instead ladelled "Count Palatine"? Easy peasy but I still disagree :)
 

Chlodio

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So. No more vassal dukes in France? That´s all you suggesting? All vassal dukes are instead ladelled "Count Palatine"? Easy peasy but I still disagree :)

No, as I demonstrated it only occurs when a vassal count creates a ducal title, duchies created by duke/king/emperor are still called duchies. The point is to separate count-made dukedoms and recognized dukedoms.
 

Tryvenyal

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No, as I demonstrated it only occurs when a vassal count creates a ducal title, duchies created by duke/king/emperor are still called duchies. The point is to separate count-made dukedoms and recognized dukedoms.

How long should the title be "Unrecognized"? Should there be a way for the liege to recognize the title? Or for Bob to request it to be recognized? Any benefits/penatlies for any of them to do or to not do it? And why should this only be true for dukal tier? We are touching coronation/vassal contracts here, which is something bigger than just the ducal localization for self- proclaimed dukes.
 

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How long should the title be "Unrecognized"? Should there be a way for the liege to recognize the title? Or for Bob to request it to be recognized? Any benefits/penatlies for any of them to do or to not do it?

Unless count palatine becomes sovereign, they remain a count palatine.

No, it's just localization.

And why should this only be true for dukal tier? We are touching coronation/vassal contracts here, which is something bigger than just the ducal localization for self- proclaimed dukes.

Because this is a minimalistic proposition for the inclusion of count palatines.
 

Tryvenyal

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@Chlodio

I´m sorry, but I have to disagree to your implementation suggestion. Not to the concept as such.

Your proposition:
  • Just forever lockes you to be something less than you are
  • You are in all aspects a duke and should be addressed as such
  • The game does on no way reflect you are "less than" a duke, so does not affect AI or the game over all.
To remove the "disagree":
  • On succession, become duke
or
  • Have a decision to create a titular duchy for you(Maybe require you to have 3-4 counties and nothing above + beeing a vassal to king or above), adding a "tracker/modifier" that you are selfproclaimed. As long as you have this tracker, you are "Count Palatine". If you still has it when you die, title is destroyed.
  • If you are "Count Palantine", you have a diplomatic action towards your liege to, for a cost, aquire a real dejure duchy you would have been eligable of creating.
  • Lock vassals from creating duchies the normal way.
  • Allow free revocation of "Count Palatine" flagged titles.
  • If at any time the holder of the "Count palatine" title has other titles on same tier, disolve it.