Country DLCs and Balance

[Duke of Awesome]

Reading the most recent developer diary, I'm worried about what the eventual game balance will look like once Paradox starts releasing more and more country focus trees as DLC. Let's use China as an example, since it seems very likely that they will get some love shortly after release. As of now, Paradox has to balance just one game, vanilla HoI4, and all is right with the world. Once the China DLC is released, Paradox suddenly has to balance two games; One for players that have the DLC and one for those who do not. The DLC will make China more interesting and more powerful than vanilla China. If it doesn't do that, then the DLC wouldn't have much point to exist. My worry is that Paradox will become too focused on balancing either the vanilla game, which would leave their DLCs unbalanced, or balancing with the assumption that all DLCs are active, which leaves vanilla unbalanced.

Any thoughts? Are my worries unfounded?

 

[zjohn4]

I was thinking similarly but less worried about it. All PDS expansions have had this potential issue before and I cant really say how well it works in those, but Itll still be perfectly playable regardless of whether you have the dlc or not. Its primarily meant as flavour, and in Chinas case, it can replace or flesh out the events that handle the civil war/war against japan anyway. With that said, it doesnt matter much if Poland is buffed a bit, since they often are overran anyway if attacked from east or west, but other nations wont be the same.

On a different note, this game will never be truly balanced, partly because of the assymetrical nature of history. Germany will always be stronger than Belgium, but the differences in the two focus trees given to Belgium via DLC wont affect that, where gaining a stronger ally will.

Also, this Poland DLC is free, and perhaps all focus tree dlc will be too, where its unnecessary to balance a dlc-user to a non-dlc-user, and only country to country as already is being done

 

[Zankoas]

Also, the dlc may not make a nation stronger, just give more flavor and options

 

[AlfredMV]

They may make it so focus trees come free with cosmetic dlc to match

 

[Imperial_Alb]

Also, the dlc may not make a nation stronger, just give more flavor and options

Like he said, I don't think it would mean that China would be powerfull by just getting it's own flavoured 'addon'. It will make it more fun to play as them since they are unique to other countries that would have the generic stuff.

PS: Sup, Shqipë.

 

[Sparrow]

From what was said about Poland any new focus tree has to avoid upsetting the trees of the majors. So these other nations might be a bit more difficult to conquer. However I don't think they will get much more IC or equipment because once they are gobbled up they will superpower their new host?

The PRC already gets a separate client that shows one China already or was that EU series? So they are kind of one up already.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

They may make it so focus trees come free with cosmetic dlc to match

Possible, yes.

I'm not sure how they could make DLC National Focus trees without having different checksums, and so presumably that will divide the MP community somewhat? I certainly hope they don't replace the generic tree for everyone, and so you are then locked out of playing a particular nation unless you decide to buy the DLC. I really hope that's not something they decide to do, and I would assume it isn't.

I think Paradox are generally pretty good with DLC, and I like the emphasis on cosmetic stuff as well as expansions, and the fact that a lot of stuff is included in patches for free. It must be difficult knowing where to draw the line.

 

[Sparrow]

Possible, yes.

I'm not sure how they could make DLC National Focus trees without having different checksums, and so presumably that will divide the MP community somewhat? I certainly hope they don't replace the generic tree for everyone, and so you are then locked out of playing a particular nation unless you decide to buy the DLC. I really hope that's not something they decide to do, and I would assume it isn't.

I think Paradox are generally pretty good with DLC, and I like the emphasis on cosmetic stuff as well as expansions, and the fact that a lot of stuff is included in patches for free. It must be difficult knowing where to draw the line.

Wouldn't they just update the FE to allow you to check which content to use in MP so that you match what everyone else is using? Sorry I don't play MP with Paradox games.

 

[Orlunu]

I certainly hope they don't replace the generic tree for everyone, and so you are then locked out of playing a particular nation unless you decide to buy the DLC. I really hope that's not something they decide to do, and I would assume it isn't.

I think that the most likely result is that they'll do groups of minors at a time by region. You won't have a DLC for each country, but you may well have a Far East DLC, an Eastern Europe DLC.

 

[Krafty]

Yeah if they DLC every country, its going to make MP a nightmare because its going to wreck the Checksum.

Not gonna happen.

Flavor and cosmetic DLCs? Sure. Stuff that changes the focus tree, is going to change the game for everyone, which means if someone buys the France DLC, and another person buys the Argentina DLC, they cant play together unless they have what the other person has.

Thats shooting their "flagship product" (HOI4) right in the foot and destroying whatever success they may have. So theyre definitely not going to do that.

 

[Volodio]

I don't understand why you think there will be DLC just for a country. In EU4 and CK2, the Paradox's policy about DLC was to add the contents in the DLC, the changes in a patch and the musics and graphics in minor DLC. How can you do that in just modify one country's gameplay ? And the two first DLC will be at 50$ (for both, so 25$ each, with the packs). Are you really ready to buy 25$ a DLC which just modify one country ? I ain't, I think you neither.

So I don't think they will do that. They will change gameplay in their DLC. So, I think the first DLC will be on spying, which seems don't really present here, there isn't even a dev diary on it and it was in a DLC for both HoI2 and HoI3. After, maybe one on guerrilla warfare, which will affect both China and Spain, and maybe the russian partisans.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Another thing that may be worth mentioning, although admittedly this is just my opinion and I am ready to be shot down for it as usual, is that not every country should have a unique National Focus tree. What is the point? We're not talking about EU IV here, but HoI IV; the game span is 12 years (by default) and the generic tree is very flexible. Why would you want to pay for 'flavor' in what is just going to be a re-worded/re-arranged version of the generic focus tree for Greece, or Venezuela, or Thailand.

Wanting trees for China or Turkey I can understand, as they have a great deal of potential and have both been great powers at different times, but I've never liked DLC simply for DLC's sake, and this is one area where I could see that happening. Just because a few people from Uruguay would like a Uruguayan National Focus tree does not mean that it's a good idea or really adds anything to the game.

 

[Bridger15]

They said their main goal is to make sure the custom trees are not worse than the Generic tree and don't upset the National focuses of other nations' trees. That should be possible without making them OP.

 

[zjohn4]

Why would you want to pay for 'flavor' in what is just going to be a re-worded/re-arranged version of the generic focus tree for Greece, or Venezuela, or Thailand.

Just want to note that people WILL pay for flavour, but I do agree that not all countries will be good. Your examples are poor though, where Greece and Thailand could have some interesting options (though far less than the majors and some minors). Both did participate uniquely in the war, not just a country that joined in the last month for symbolism and a place at the peace table

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Just want to note that people WILL pay for flavour, but I do agree that not all countries will be good. Your examples are poor though, where Greece and Thailand could have some interesting options (though far less than the majors and some minors). Both did participate uniquely in the war, not just a country that joined in the last month for symbolism and a place at the peace table

Actually, that is precisely why I picked those examples in particular. My point is that whilst some minor powers contributed to the war effort for their respective faction, would they really benefit from an entirely unique National Focus tree? What global political or even regional political/military muscle did they have? Their strategic options were dictated entirely by the actions of their political master; without the Japanese conquest of the East Indies and Burma, Thailand would not really have any serious room to operate independently. Likewise, aside from taking advantage of its neighbors in times of weakness (events driven by other powers) what exactly can Greece do without getting stomped? Its options are certainly limited.

As the devs themselves have said, the generic National Focus tree provides a great deal of flexibility to push your nation in whichever direction you would like, and I would say something like 80% of the nations on Earth did not manufacture their own military hardware during this period (outside of rifles, perhaps) and so your DLC tech trees will be largely fictitious; certainly this will be the case for everyone's naval tree, and the bottom halves of their land & air trees.

I understand that a DLC pack for China is very likely to be released, and actually you can argue that they should have been one of the starting majors, but for the majority of nations I really think it's just a case of trying to appeal to Paradox fans from those particular countries; they simply do not warrant unique National Focus trees or tech/art stuff, and actually Poland (which is free) is a fantastic case in point -- her National Focus tree already shares several of the generic tree's ideas, and most of their tech names/artwork are totally made-up because no such Polish-made historical equivalents existed.

 

[gabadur]

Yeah if they DLC every country, its going to make MP a nightmare because its going to wreck the Checksum.

Not gonna happen.

Flavor and cosmetic DLCs? Sure. Stuff that changes the focus tree, is going to change the game for everyone, which means if someone buys the France DLC, and another person buys the Argentina DLC, they cant play together unless they have what the other person has.

Thats shooting their "flagship product" (HOI4) right in the foot and destroying whatever success they may have. So theyre definitely not going to do that.

In paradox games people get what the host has, so it matters on the host

 

[zjohn4]

...

To some degree, youre right in that the generic tree CAN work for each country, and it will, but adding that flavour can make it a more enjoyable experience. It does have sandbox aspects where you can CHOOSE to for France to turn facist or communist, rather than the more realistic issues with doing so, so giving these minor nations some attention and allowing them to do more actions specific to their nation is only a good thing, even if it doesnt do much. There is potential for Poland to have producted a battleship if it werent invaded as happened. If Poland rises that far, why not give them something special. Adding unique units for tanks than never existed for a country does sound silly, but most countries wont have unique unit models, but rather just 2d graphics (for the icon) and names which are easy enough to come up with.

Perhaps the smaller nations will never be touched (unlikely), or perhaps some of the generic tree will be kept for them anyway, but HOI3 suffered for not having enough difference between nations that arent majors. Not enough events, and the focus tree concept is an extension of the event system (since the whole tree could be implemented in events anyway).