-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
The political alignment of each country in 1914 has to be established. In HOI II, there are sliders for the following:
As an example, I would say that the British Empire and the United States are aligned thus:
Suggestions for other states?
As an example, I would say that the British Empire and the United States are aligned thus:
Code:
UNITED STATES
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Democratic-Authoritarian
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - o - - - - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - - - - - - o|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|- - - - - - - - - o|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|- - - - - - - - o -|
BRITISH EMPIRE
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Democratic-Authoritarian
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - - o - - - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - - - - - - o|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|- - - - - o - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|- - - o - - - - - -|Suggestions for other states?
Germany(?):
Sweden:
Code:
Democratic-Authoritarian
|- - - - - - - - - o|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - o - - - - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|- - o - - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|- o - - - - - - - -|Sweden:
Code:
Democratic-Authoritarian
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - - - o - - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|- - - o - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - - - - - - o|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|- - - - o - - - - -|I disagree with you over Germany. I'd align them like this:
To have Germany to the end of the scale on authoritarianism would put it on par with an Arab sheikhdom - as she had (an albeit weak) Reichstag and a very powerful Kaiser and Chancellor, then Germany should be near the end of the scale, but not totally.
Similarly, I would move Germany nearer the political right to represent the political opinions of the Kaiser, the Chancellor and the military, which overshadowed those of the socialist dominated Reichstag.
I would also move Germany fully towards Hawk-Interventionism - I think her actions after 1911 are self explanatory.
Code:
Democratic-Authoritarian
|- - - - - - - o - -|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - - - - o - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|- - o - - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|o - - - - - - - - -|To have Germany to the end of the scale on authoritarianism would put it on par with an Arab sheikhdom - as she had (an albeit weak) Reichstag and a very powerful Kaiser and Chancellor, then Germany should be near the end of the scale, but not totally.
Similarly, I would move Germany nearer the political right to represent the political opinions of the Kaiser, the Chancellor and the military, which overshadowed those of the socialist dominated Reichstag.
I would also move Germany fully towards Hawk-Interventionism - I think her actions after 1911 are self explanatory.
I agree with you on Germany Allenby. But I would move Germany's 'Army' slider one or two slots in the direction of drafted army to compensate for reserve system. But since I do not have the game yet (hopefully today) it is only an uniformed opinion.
Shadow Knight said:
Yeah, interesting point regarding the German Army, because in standard HOI II, both France and Germany in 1936 and 1939 have the scale somewhere in the middle:
Code:
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - - o - - - -|I'd therefore assume that Germany in 1914 should be the same or so...
For gameplays sake maybe, but at that time I wouldn´t consider any country on earth a 10 in democracy.
A lot of "democratic" countries did not have "one man - one vote" -system and how many countries had voting rights for women?
And still democracy means so much more.
How likely were the people to follow the orders of the president/primeminister/dictator?
A lot of "democratic" countries did not have "one man - one vote" -system and how many countries had voting rights for women?
And still democracy means so much more.
How likely were the people to follow the orders of the president/primeminister/dictator?
albso437 said:
The important question is this - how democratic was a certain state for its era? For 1914's standards, the United States, Great Britain and the Dominions were probably the most democratic states in the world along with France at the very least.
As for universal suffrage, New Zealand and Norway had granted it by 1914.
The scale is a 1914 one - not a 2005 scale or even a 1936 scale.
Germany should actually have a slider closer to the political left. The Kaiser had a odd perception of politics, a view which I find more leftist that rightist.
Zuckergußgebäck said:
If we were talking to the Wilhelm II of 1889/90 then I would be inclined to agree with you - he did, after all, favour liberal legislation in the first years of his reign and took the side of the Westphalian coal miners in 1889 when they striked, much to Bismarck's annoyance. Yet by 1914, it is Wilhelm II who is the advocate of military force to smash the socialists and it is the Kaiser who talks depressingly of a final showdown between Slav and Teuton for the supremacy of Eastern Europe. If he was leftish when he first came to the throne, he was firmly on the right by the outbreak of the war.
Furthermore, the political scale does not account for the Kaiser alone, but for the ruling establishment as a whole. In that sense, the right-leaning nature of the Chancellor and the German military ensure that Germany's political leaning as a whole is placed there too.
I'd put Switzerland as a ten on the scale. Then the US, UK, and Dominions being a eight or nine on a case-by-case basis.
How does this sound as a matter of general principle? If we know what each score means, we can rate every country appropriately.
Authoritarian - Democracy
1 - 2
Rule by a single, unelected person or small group who can safely ignore public opinion.
Absolute monarchies, brutal dictatorships, military juntas.
For example: the Ottoman Empire, Tsarist Russia.
2 - 3
As above, but the rulers must at least give the pretence of listening to public opinion. (or alternatively, there are several powerful interest-groups outside the ruling clique who must be bargained with).
For example: Mexico (under Huerta), most Balkan states, Austria-Hungary, Soviet Russia.
4 - 5
Power is still in the hands of the elite, but elected bodies or other pressure groups now exercise real influence; compromise with them is often necessary. 'Authoritarian democracy' in TGW terms.
For example: Germany.
6 - 7
Governments are elected by the will of the people, at least in theory, but the franchise may be limited or there are still strong vested interests that must be contended with.
For example: Italy.
8 - 9
Genuinely democratic states where the elected government holds real power. However, there may still be a restricted franchise, or a monarchy or aristocracy with influence over events.
For example: Britain, most Scandinavian or Benelux countries.
10
Democratic republics with an active hostility towards vested interests or hereditary power.
For example: France, USA, Makhnovshchina.
Authoritarian - Democracy
1 - 2
Rule by a single, unelected person or small group who can safely ignore public opinion.
Absolute monarchies, brutal dictatorships, military juntas.
For example: the Ottoman Empire, Tsarist Russia.
2 - 3
As above, but the rulers must at least give the pretence of listening to public opinion. (or alternatively, there are several powerful interest-groups outside the ruling clique who must be bargained with).
For example: Mexico (under Huerta), most Balkan states, Austria-Hungary, Soviet Russia.
4 - 5
Power is still in the hands of the elite, but elected bodies or other pressure groups now exercise real influence; compromise with them is often necessary. 'Authoritarian democracy' in TGW terms.
For example: Germany.
6 - 7
Governments are elected by the will of the people, at least in theory, but the franchise may be limited or there are still strong vested interests that must be contended with.
For example: Italy.
8 - 9
Genuinely democratic states where the elected government holds real power. However, there may still be a restricted franchise, or a monarchy or aristocracy with influence over events.
For example: Britain, most Scandinavian or Benelux countries.
10
Democratic republics with an active hostility towards vested interests or hereditary power.
For example: France, USA, Makhnovshchina.
Regarding the tags, will it be necessary to give countries like Denmark and the Netherlands a different tag to avoid Germany declaring war on them automatically?
I disagree with the alignments that have been made. I myself am quite well versed in WWI history. My changes are 0's rather than o's. However, in the military difference between draft and standing has anything to do with the skill of that force (I dont have HOI2 yet), then an x marks my changes there. This is how I believe they should be:
My main thing here was that the British Army was an all-regular force in 1914, with no draft or reservists, the only one in europe. My definition of seperation is the ratio between draftees and volunteer/regular forces. In this way, Britain is on the edge of a standing army.
Again, my main thing was the military alignment. The draft was heavy in Germany, as it was in almost all major European powers. It is not heavy on that though because Germany also had significant formations of volunteer forces. Also, Germany was effectively a constitutional Monarchy, but it was still a bit authoritarian and focused on order, which is why I made changes in those areas as well.
Also, here's Russia
Im not really a genius on Russia though... keep that in mind.
- Gordon Freeman
Code:
BRITISH EMPIRE
10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
Democratic-Authoritarian
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - - o - - - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|- 0 - - - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|0 - - x - - - - - -|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|- - - - - o - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|- - 0 - - - - - - -|My main thing here was that the British Army was an all-regular force in 1914, with no draft or reservists, the only one in europe. My definition of seperation is the ratio between draftees and volunteer/regular forces. In this way, Britain is on the edge of a standing army.
Code:
Germany
Democratic-Authoritarian
|- - - - - - 0 - - -|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - - - - - 0 -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|- - - 0 - - - - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|- o - - - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - x - 0 - - -|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|o - - - - - - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|o - - - - - - - - -|Again, my main thing was the military alignment. The draft was heavy in Germany, as it was in almost all major European powers. It is not heavy on that though because Germany also had significant formations of volunteer forces. Also, Germany was effectively a constitutional Monarchy, but it was still a bit authoritarian and focused on order, which is why I made changes in those areas as well.
Also, here's Russia
Code:
Russia
Democratic-Authoritarian
|- - - - - - - - - o|
Political Left-Political Right
|- - - - - o - - - -|
Open Society-Closed Society
|- - - - - - o - - -|
Free Market-Central Planning
|- - - o - - - - - -|
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - - - - - o -|
Hawk Lobby-Dove Lobby
|- - - - o - - - - -|
Interventionism-Isolationism
|- - - - - o - - - -|Im not really a genius on Russia though... keep that in mind.
- Gordon Freeman
I'd put Russia as a 2 rather than a 1 in the democracy/authoritarian stakes - they did have the elected Duma even if it was pretty much a joke.
Regarding standing army-draft, I'm cautious of expressing an opinion since I have no clue what game effects the rating has. But I do know that Germany drafted a significantly smaller proportion of its population than many other continental European states. Military service was two years, as opposed to three in France; and even then they only conscripted 56% of the eligible population in peacetime. Also, the German army definitely falls on the professional rather than conscript side of the equation.
Regarding standing army-draft, I'm cautious of expressing an opinion since I have no clue what game effects the rating has. But I do know that Germany drafted a significantly smaller proportion of its population than many other continental European states. Military service was two years, as opposed to three in France; and even then they only conscripted 56% of the eligible population in peacetime. Also, the German army definitely falls on the professional rather than conscript side of the equation.
A few more observations on Russia:
I think they define Political Right. Authoritarian, patriarchal, heirarchical, religious, conservative, oppressive, and supportive of the rights of the powerful to grow wealthy at the expense of the working classes.
I'd put them much more towards Closed Society than Mr Freeman does. After all, they had a secret police, concentration camps in Siberia, censorship, informers, and a culture where assassination was considered the only effective form of political expression.
Free market/central planning I'm not so sure of - Russia was a capitalist society, but in an absolute autocracy the government is involved in the economy by default.
Russia in 1914 was probably 75% of the way towards Hawk Lobby. (In 1904 they'd be all the way there, in 1908 closer to Dove, but by 1914 they were becoming much more hawkish again)
They should also be an 8 or 9 in Interventionism - just look at their involvement in Bulgaria, Rumania, Turkey, Serbia, China, Korea...
I think they define Political Right. Authoritarian, patriarchal, heirarchical, religious, conservative, oppressive, and supportive of the rights of the powerful to grow wealthy at the expense of the working classes.
I'd put them much more towards Closed Society than Mr Freeman does. After all, they had a secret police, concentration camps in Siberia, censorship, informers, and a culture where assassination was considered the only effective form of political expression.
Free market/central planning I'm not so sure of - Russia was a capitalist society, but in an absolute autocracy the government is involved in the economy by default.
Russia in 1914 was probably 75% of the way towards Hawk Lobby. (In 1904 they'd be all the way there, in 1908 closer to Dove, but by 1914 they were becoming much more hawkish again)
They should also be an 8 or 9 in Interventionism - just look at their involvement in Bulgaria, Rumania, Turkey, Serbia, China, Korea...
Those all make sense, except that Russia does not seem to jump at everything as you say. They dont strike me as very interventionalist. It was just the Serbian Crisis that they decided to jump but they didnt really from '04 to '14StephenT said:
I think those dates are significant. Russia suffered a major defeat in the Russo-Japanese War, and for the next ten years they were much more cautious about foreign entanglements.Gordon Freeman said:
However, by 1914 they'd become much more interventionist again. In fact, arguably it was Russia's desire to no longer be a pushover in foreign affairs that was the main trigger for WW1 breaking out. In other words, a scenario starting in 1908 would have an isolationist Russia, but in 1914 I think they should be interventionist.
StephenT said:
Apparently not.
StephenT said:
I'll try to clear this up.
The manual states the following on the Standing-Drafted Army scale:
....and adds this on the 'gearing bonus':
United States in 1936, for example has:
Code:
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|- - - - - - - - - o|This equates to:
Gearing Bonus +10%
Unit Organisation -10%
Therefore,
Code:
Standing Army-Drafted Army
|o - - - - - - - - -|...equates to:
Gearing Bonus -10%
Unit Organisation +10%