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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

unmerged(75588)

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May 3, 2007
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Hello everyone.

I've been following this forum on and off for a while, as I'm quite keen on having a go at this modification once it comes into entertainable existence. All respect to everyone on undertaking such an impressively vast project!

Noticed a couple of things on page 18 here I sort of feel I have to add my 5 cents to:

Huzar said:
But if you make Conrad '2', than other A-H leaders should be much worse. At the end the A-H army will became real catastrophe (like it was historically :rofl: )
I don't think A-H command was quite entirely as useless as it seems to be pictured. After all, it did not become invaded by Russia, it did (to an extent) defeat Serbia and it kept a succesful defence against Italy, which due to its national mix, poor supply and outdated equipment was rather a feat.

And when rating "every other general even worse than ol' Conrad", why does noone mention the skill of the defender of the Isonzo front general S. Boroevic ( http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/boroevic.htm )? The fellow did manage to hold (quite outgunned) against 11 consecutive Italian offensives. I'd say thats something of an achievement.

Anyway...some nice reading on other commanders on this page as well:
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/bioind.htm

StephenT said:
Well, my recent post was based on new research. I didn't realise just what a racial mish-mash the KuK Armee really was... I mean, I thought they would have German regiments and Magyar regiments and Rumanian regiments etc, not each regiment a complete mixture.
...
Alternatively, maybe some sort of "Ethnic unrest" event chain triggered in 1917/8 if A-H is losing the war, resulting in A-H first losing cores on certain territories then, a year later, being forced to grant them independence?
You neglected to even remotely mention my little Alpine tribe's involvement in the war in your entire article. Curses of ancient Slavic gods and my A-H-uniform-wearing great grandfathers upon ye for such inexcusable omittance!

But seriously. A-H army was probably more aware of different national prides at the time than other armies in the conflict. It allowed national insignias and uniform variations for various specific ethnic regiments, probably in hope of deterring the inevitable ethnic break up of an impossible multi-ethnic empire by giving limited concessions to ethnic pride thus trying to appear tolerant to all its constituents. Though mistrust went both ways really. German speaking citizens, influenced by the rise of the united German idea in the previous century, accused the non-German speaking citizens of disloyality to the Crown, while the non-German speaking citizens begun to see the monarchy as a "jail of nations" under an increasingly Germanic heel, and its government as a tool of germanization of the lands. This however had varied effects. The troops had poor morale and fought poorly where they perceived the fight as a fight for the welfare of the Germanic monarchy, but oppositely fought rather well where they perceived it as a fight for a chance of a better prospect for their own nationality. Hence the bitter defence against the Italians on the Isonzo front by the defending Slovenians, Croats and Bosnians (who certainly didn't want their lands to come from one foreign rule under another) and the total apathy of the Hungarians on the same battlefield, who couldn't care less about the Italians. Hence the spirited performance of the Poles against the Russian army (for the same reason as above) and massive surrenders of the south Slavs on that battlefield (as they percieved the Russians their pan-Slavic liberators from under Germanic rule). Course even this wasn't very homogenous, as feelings of "military duty", "soldier's dignity" and "loyalty to the Kaiser und König" were also traditionally deep-rooted, and often superseded ethnic sentiments.
However national propaganda that was very cohesive in the cases of UK and Germany, and somewhat less so in France and Russia, failed considerably in A-H, and while for instance Slovenian and Croat army conscripts cheered "Onto Belgrade!" enthusiastically at the outbreak of the war, they were equally quick to cheer "With Belgrade!" towards the end of it. It just didn't seem to be worth bleeding for a state that noone really loved anymore, even though no considerable invasions into A-H's territory were made by either enemy, that would seem to logically cause such a morale drop... Why would a Czech, Slovak or a Pole be willing to give up his life for his Germanic monarchy to gain more land in the Adriatic or the Balkans? Why would a Slovene, a Croat or Istrian Italian care if it won a tract of land in the Ukraine?

Gamewise; possibly losing lives would cause the disintegration of A-H much more than losing land. So maybe national emancipations of states or at least army rebellions which would incapacitate the fighting force of A-H, would be brought on by somehow calculating the overall losses and triggered when the losses reach a certain point.

Well...either I'm making a point or just conversation, I'm having fun either way. If my humble knowledge can in any way help your war effort (I'm doing some modding every now and then, but all I did in HoI2 so far was do a ton of picture changing for Germany, Soviet Union and Yugoslavia where I felt the vanilla ones were inadequately historic or representative), I'd be glad to offer it. I did research (theoretically and on location) the Austrian-Italian front rather extensively, as well as the political happenings regarding the "births of nations" in central and southern Europe from the late nineteenth century onwards.
 

unmerged(53293)

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I think the manpower of France and Germany is to high. How about reducing French manpower to 0.75 per day and German to 1.1?
 

Allenby

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lees said:
I think the manpower of France and Germany is to high. How about reducing French manpower to 0.75 per day and German to 1.1?
Have you tested this yet? It would be interesting to find out what happens as a consequence. :)
 

unmerged(53293)

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No, I haven't tested it yet. But I think 0.75 and 1.3 (not 1.1) would be more realistic because France per year recruited about 250-300.000 and Germany about 500.000 men.
 

El Pip

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lees said:
No, I haven't tested it yet. But I think 0.75 and 1.3 (not 1.1) would be more realistic because France per year recruited about 250-300.000 and Germany about 500.000 men.
Well there is the constant balance of realism vs playability so it would be interesting to see what effect the change had on the game.
 

unmerged(53293)

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Why is the German metal production so high? Germany had to import large parts of it's iron. Their steel production was high but Germany didn't have much iron.
 

Allenby

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lees said:
Why is the German metal production so high? Germany had to import large parts of it's iron. Their steel production was high but Germany didn't have much iron.
I believe all metal production statistics used in this mod and TGW are based upon steel production figures. The importance of steel as opposed to iron is probably emphasised that steel production figures are more readily available than those for iron. Kennedy, for example, quotes iron production statistics in The Rise and Fall for 1890 and then steel for all dates thereafter.
 

SorelusImperion

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why not circumsize this problem and make a large part of the German metal/steel production off-map to reduce it as soon as the British blocade cuts of Germany from the world trade with some options to increase it if Germany gets access to major sources of Iron (treaty of Brest-Litowsk, German alliance with Sweden, etc.)
 

Kaiser Franz

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China!!
i've sorted out the Kuomintang revolt part, they should show up in Guandong, but fopr some reason show up in the north, i found out its due to the provinces in the revolt section...

here is the new version

CHI = {
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1897 }
expirydate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1947 }
minimum = {
1248 1249 1314 1313 1312 1317 1318 1321 1325 1320
}
extra = { 1282 1281 1206
1360 1361 1363 1364 1365 1277
1269 1268 1267 1266 1279 1280 1265 1264 1263 1262 1261 1260 1259
1257 1256 1255 1254 1253 1252 1251 1250 1247 1246 1245 1244 1243
1242 1241 1240 1238 1234 1233 1232 1231 1230 1229 1228
1227 1224 1223 1222 1221 1218 1216 1215 1214 1213
1212 1211 1210 1208 1207 1205
1203 1204 1272 1278 1305 1293 1282 1281 1327 1307 1308 1309 1325 1320 1319 1310
1318 1312 1311 1313 1317 1360 1361 1362 1363 1364 1365 1277 1275
1269 1268 1267 1266 1279 1280 1265 1264 1263 1262 1261 1260 1259 1258
1257 1256 1255 1254 1253 1252 1251 1250 1249 1248 1247 1246 1245 1244 1243
1242 1241 1240 1239 1238 1236 1235 1234 1233 1232 1231 1230 1229 1228
1227 1226 1225 1224 1223 1222 1221 1220 1219 1218 1217 1216 1215 1213
1212 1211 1210 1209 1208 1207 1206 1205 1270 1271 1273
1203 1204 1272 1274 1276 1278 1398
}
capital = 1313
}
i also did something for the Anfu (anhui) clique (u12), i based it on a map shown to me by allenby...i also did a nice and proper minister list for anfu...

U12 = {
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1914 }
expirydate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1947 }
minimum = {
1214 1213 1216 1238 1239 1240 1241
}
extra = { }
capital = 1239
}
But, that map was from 1920, i suspect the actual Anfu clique was, when set up, originally in Anfu and Fujian provinces...but we can sort this out later, thsi is for certain...

enjoy!
 

Akira

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About the Far Eastern Republic, if you let me borrow some tag,like U16, DDR, VIC, RSI or DFR I'll provide you with the brand new country. 1914 is a very promising mod and I'd like to help developing it.
 
Last edited:

Akira

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Also, the flag you are currently using for Ukraine is, actually, for West Ukraine which, for some reason, you don't have yet. The flag for the "main" Ukraine, the broke away from Russia, is this :



 

unmerged(54763)

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Triglav said:
Hello everyone.

I've been following this forum on and off for a while, as I'm quite keen on having a go at this modification once it comes into entertainable existence. All respect to everyone on undertaking such an impressively vast project!

Noticed a couple of things on page 18 here I sort of feel I have to add my 5 cents to:



I don't think A-H command was quite entirely as useless as it seems to be pictured. After all, it did not become invaded by Russia, it did (to an extent) defeat Serbia and it kept a succesful defence against Italy, which due to its national mix, poor supply and outdated equipment was rather a feat.

And when rating "every other general even worse than ol' Conrad", why does noone mention the skill of the defender of the Isonzo front general S. Boroevic ( http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/boroevic.htm )? The fellow did manage to hold (quite outgunned) against 11 consecutive Italian offensives. I'd say thats something of an achievement.

Anyway...some nice reading on other commanders on this page as well:
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/bioind.htm



You neglected to even remotely mention my little Alpine tribe's involvement in the war in your entire article. Curses of ancient Slavic gods and my A-H-uniform-wearing great grandfathers upon ye for such inexcusable omittance!

But seriously. A-H army was probably more aware of different national prides at the time than other armies in the conflict. It allowed national insignias and uniform variations for various specific ethnic regiments, probably in hope of deterring the inevitable ethnic break up of an impossible multi-ethnic empire by giving limited concessions to ethnic pride thus trying to appear tolerant to all its constituents. Though mistrust went both ways really. German speaking citizens, influenced by the rise of the united German idea in the previous century, accused the non-German speaking citizens of disloyality to the Crown, while the non-German speaking citizens begun to see the monarchy as a "jail of nations" under an increasingly Germanic heel, and its government as a tool of germanization of the lands. This however had varied effects. The troops had poor morale and fought poorly where they perceived the fight as a fight for the welfare of the Germanic monarchy, but oppositely fought rather well where they perceived it as a fight for a chance of a better prospect for their own nationality. Hence the bitter defence against the Italians on the Isonzo front by the defending Slovenians, Croats and Bosnians (who certainly didn't want their lands to come from one foreign rule under another) and the total apathy of the Hungarians on the same battlefield, who couldn't care less about the Italians. Hence the spirited performance of the Poles against the Russian army (for the same reason as above) and massive surrenders of the south Slavs on that battlefield (as they percieved the Russians their pan-Slavic liberators from under Germanic rule). Course even this wasn't very homogenous, as feelings of "military duty", "soldier's dignity" and "loyalty to the Kaiser und König" were also traditionally deep-rooted, and often superseded ethnic sentiments.
However national propaganda that was very cohesive in the cases of UK and Germany, and somewhat less so in France and Russia, failed considerably in A-H, and while for instance Slovenian and Croat army conscripts cheered "Onto Belgrade!" enthusiastically at the outbreak of the war, they were equally quick to cheer "With Belgrade!" towards the end of it. It just didn't seem to be worth bleeding for a state that noone really loved anymore, even though no considerable invasions into A-H's territory were made by either enemy, that would seem to logically cause such a morale drop... Why would a Czech, Slovak or a Pole be willing to give up his life for his Germanic monarchy to gain more land in the Adriatic or the Balkans? Why would a Slovene, a Croat or Istrian Italian care if it won a tract of land in the Ukraine?

Gamewise; possibly losing lives would cause the disintegration of A-H much more than losing land. So maybe national emancipations of states or at least army rebellions which would incapacitate the fighting force of A-H, would be brought on by somehow calculating the overall losses and triggered when the losses reach a certain point.

Well...either I'm making a point or just conversation, I'm having fun either way. If my humble knowledge can in any way help your war effort (I'm doing some modding every now and then, but all I did in HoI2 so far was do a ton of picture changing for Germany, Soviet Union and Yugoslavia where I felt the vanilla ones were inadequately historic or representative), I'd be glad to offer it. I did research (theoretically and on location) the Austrian-Italian front rather extensively, as well as the political happenings regarding the "births of nations" in central and southern Europe from the late nineteenth century onwards.
Ah those ideas of A-H legendary weakneses.

In 1914 and 1915 A-H fought allmost alone against Russia(Empire with 50 million against Empire of 150 million people,and Russians themselwes concentrated their atacks to A-H more than to GER.),plus well dig in and expirienced Serbs in Balcan mountains..And still Russians only managed temporarely to capture parts of Galicia with losses in millions on both sides.
There is estimation that losses of Russia against A-H in 1916 and 1917(where A-H allso bleeded itself with 1.5 million losses only in 1917)greatly contributed to October unrests and revolution in Russia.
"Progressive" historians after ww1 found hard to accept the fact that A-H bleeded away Russia to the point of exhaustion.(and itself allso)

Italians didnt make a mile of advance in allmost 3 years aginst only small portion of A-H armed forces.

A-H collapsed only when even mighty Germans succumbed under Allied strikes.And when even unrests were in national-homogen Germany and France.
France was for instance on the break of civil disorder and was reanimated by British suicidal ofensives to give France time to breath.

My point of view may be strange, But I think realy that A-H was powerfull country,and its national diveristy was present, but allso was present pride and continuity of many centuries of living in Empire.Millions of A-H soldiers died for its Emperor and for Empire and only after Central powers started to succumb under preasure of more powerfull and fully mobilised foes from the West, did national diferences started to prevail.And that started to happen not on the first day of war,but only after 3 years of brutal war that exhausted all segments of society.

But,of course since A-H was not politicaly and strategicaly acceptable concept for Entente and some other interest groups, it was "correct" from there on to be written in ofitial history that K&K was an impotent and totaly artefitial hanchback.

Well I think she wasnt.

EDIT-I am from Croatia.From literature I can say that in my country(part of empire) ww1 started with enthusiasm like evrywhere.After 2 years of war came tremendeos burgeon of losses of manpower in massive battles against allways numericaly superior Russians in Galicia.There is even a novel written by one of the best Croat writers(M.Krleza) that describes his expirience in trenches of Galicia and allmost animaginable ,countless massive Russian atacks and charges on A-H trenches with virtualy limitless manpower on Russian side.
After that came economic crisis,after that came allmost starvation and rising of criminal,and only after that did national ideas of separate Croat(south Slav) nation started to play significant role.I am sure that was the case in all parts of K&K.
Simply,at the end, escape was needed,escape from everything from the past and from the war.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(53293)

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I want to correct something about Tuva (the province Kyzyl).
Tuva belonged to the Qing-Empire until the revolution 1911. During the Qinghai-Revolution Russia formed a seperatist movement in Tuva and in 1912 Tsar Nicholas ordered Russian troops into Tuva. So in the 1897 and 1911 scenarios Tuva should be Qing not Russian property.
Another thing which bothers me is, that because Mongolia is not national territory of the Qing-Empire the partisan movement there is ridiculous high which is not realistic. Also I want to ask why outer Mongolia isn't national territory of the Chinese Republic. It never gave up it's claim on Outer Mongolia.
 

v.Manstein

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Thanks for your information, we'll change that in the future.
 

Tegetthoff

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There are some mistakes in scenario files, concerning following:

There arn't Khanate of Bukhara - pre-Uzbekistan, puppet of Russia,
There arn't Khanate of Khiva - pre-Turkmenistan, puppet of Russia.

Where i can send corrected files?
Spocky is in charge of putting things together (although there is no dev version up to now for 0.5). Upload your changes to some server and post the link in the 0.5 dev thread.

Be careful, however. 1914 has to be compatible with HOI2, DD and ARM so you might not have sufficient Uxx tags (only ARM went up to U99 as far as I remember).

Also, you should playtest a version with the puppets and see how the victory events work out. We should not have wars where Russia is at peace and the two puppets continue to fight on.

If the two Khanates were not around in 1914, you should write events for their annexation.

And remember to add flags, leaders and ministers (and unit icons).

And be careful to verify that the puppets are economically viable. We have several mini states in the mod as of now that are at zero IC after one or two game years (especially the Ottoman puppets). We even have a whole nation (Korea) that is not economically viable and collapses after a couple of years.

Cheers,

T.
 

Ithron

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Concerning A-H army, I found a small fact that might be usefull..maybe.. It would seem that the A-H army lost the highest percentage of it's troops, compared to any other involved country. Up to 90% of it's soldiers died. Maybe there are also deserters in that number, though it was written, that this percentage is not of just how many troops were lost, but how many actually were killed.
Anyways, great mod, and keep up the good work!

EDIT. Forgot to add, also concerning A-H. Though war was welcomed indeed, liebgot, in many places, for example there is somewhere a quote, that in Praga, there were no cheers or happiness. This would show, that A-H was the first/one of the first countries to have large part of it's population being very much unhappy with the war.
 
Last edited:

igro_bel

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Russian question?

Hi everybody!

I tried to find any information about my question on forum and didn't find anything regarding a lack of russian IC in 1897, so i must reconstruct historicity: in 1890s Russia exported 500 million poods (16 kilo's) only crops!, apart from wood, feed, furs and so on.
In scenario impossible to support existed troops, say nothing of construction new etc.
Realizing that we can't change recovering resources (in Russian Empire mining and steelmaking industry were primitive) alternative may be in offmap suppling?

BTW, how IC had defined?
Start 1897:
RUS: 49/140 (at that time to supply troops we need approx. 54!)
GER: 151/229
A-H: 57/82
OTT: 25/41 (????)
FRA: 88/126
Britain: 135/205, on the next day - 176/205 (????)
USA 126/307
JAP: 41/58

So may be discuss this matters?