Counter-Barbarossa?

[BrutalDeluxe]

Hello,

I got into an argument about barbarossa the other day. My pov was that the soviets were preparing to invade Germany and that Germany pretty much had to invade when they did as a preemptive strike. This is something I've always taken as a given, but when my 'opponent' asked for sources I couldn't find any.

The only source I could find was "stuka pilot", but biography~ a not very objective source makes.

Makes no sense to me not to be planning an attack on Germany but then again my opinion is based and I admit that, so: Is there any documented info / files / documents / etc that prove that the soviets were planning an attack on Ger?

also hello, first post etc.

 

[CruelDwarf]

Hello,

I got into an argument about barbarossa the other day. My pov was that the soviets were preparing to invade Germany and that Germany pretty much had to invade when they did as a preemptive strike. This is something I've always taken as a given, but when my 'opponent' asked for sources I couldn't find any.

The only source I could find was "stuka pilot", but biography~ a not very objective source makes.

Makes no sense to me not to be planning an attack on Germany but then again my opinion is based and I admit that, so: Is there any documented info / files / documents / etc that prove that the soviets were planning an attack on Ger?

also hello, first post etc.

Soviets weren't preparing to invade the Germany any time soon. Their army was in the process of reorganization and weren't deployed or even mobilized for the attack. Soviets of course had plans for invasion but these plans were very much theoretical at this point.
The idea that Barbarossa was a preemptive strike is a myth which based in how nazies justified their attack and nothing more.

 

[Cavalry]

It was Nazi and Japanese that start the "Axis against Communist" first. Nazi's ally Japanese, already attacked Soviet in force. Soviet know about the threats and prepared to stop it and counter attacks, but in 1941 they are far from ready, and they would not fooly start war alone when the combine forces of German and Japanese still on their sides.

 

[BrutalDeluxe]

No offense but I still don't see any sources. Might be because there isn't any and if so I accept that. One can be wrong once in a hundred times

 

[CruelDwarf]

No offense but I still don't see any sources. Might be because there isn't any and if so I accept that. One can be wrong once in a hundred times

What sources do you need? You cannot prove that something (aka soviet plans to invade Germany in 1941 or 1942 or even 1943) exist. People need to prove that such plans actually existed. And till these days many people tried to prove it but they all failed.

Most basic thing is very simple: you can look at how german and soviet forces were deployed at the start of Barbarossa and it is very clear that soviets weren't in position to attack any time soon.

 

[MCMartel]

I forget where, but I remember reading Stalin was preparing for an eventual war with Hitler,maybe in the mid-1940's or so, but I don't know about anything as concrete as invasion plans. I mean, there was a hypothetical first-strike plan proposed by Zhukov when it looked like Barbarossa might happen, but it got shot down really early because it wasn't a great plan and Stalin was in really deep denial about war in 1941.

 

[liveandletdie14]

I forget where, but I remember reading Stalin was preparing for an eventual war with Hitler,maybe in the mid-1940's or so, but I don't know about anything as concrete as invasion plans. I mean, there was a hypothetical first-strike plan proposed by Zhukov when it looked like Barbarossa might happen, but it got shot down really early because it wasn't a great plan and Stalin was in really deep denial about war in 1941.

Stalin thought it inevitable that they would be at war with Germany, but in general wanted it to be around 1942 when Russia would be better prepared to fight Germany. It was a complete and utter surprise when Germany invaded despite the Germans, the British, and the Russians having told him that Hitler was going to attack. Even as Germany was invading Russia he didn't believe it, which is partly when Soviet defence on the outbreak was in utter and complete chaos.

And to the original post, Hitler did not 'have' to invade the Soviet Union at all. He believed the Soviet invasion would fulfil his idea of Lebansraum and that the best way to beat the British and to end the war would be beating the Soviet Union as it would secure the resources he needs, defeat 'the Jewish Bolsheviks' and make himself master of Europe. He thought the USSR would be much easier to beat than France would have been.

 

[BrutalDeluxe]

Yeah, I understand Adolf's mistake was hubris. I mean, if the finns could hold back the soviets, then what could the soviets do against Ger?

 

[CruelDwarf]

Stalin thought it inevitable that they would be at war with Germany, but in general wanted it to be around 1942 when Russia would be better prepared to fight Germany. It was a complete and utter surprise when Germany invaded despite the Germans, the British, and the Russians having told him that Hitler was going to attack. Even as Germany was invading Russia he didn't believe it, which is partly when Soviet defence on the outbreak was in utter and complete chaos.

It is rather popular myth but it is completely untrue. The order to assume full combat readiness was given at june 21. Troops started to move to the border regions in the second decade of june. Soviets had the information that germans would possibly attack and they acted on this information. The surprise element was not in the attack itself but in german decision to not issue any ultimatums or demands before actual declaration of war.

I must also point out that soviet resistance was actually strongest in the first two weeks of the war and germans suffered their largest daily casualties in the june and july.

 

[BrutalDeluxe]

Hmh.. So the soviets would have been pretty much content with the borders pre-barbarossa and leave it at that? Sounds absurd, but then again I must stress that I'm based in my opinion and can't be objective here.

 

[WSnova]

The USA also had plans to have war against Germany.

The french also had plans to invade Germany.

All militaries have plans against potentially hostile neighbours even if its a stretch. If the Soviets were really planning to go on a conquer Spree they were really doing a bad job at it.

The Soviet doctrine consisted on taking the fight to the enemy regardless if it was an offensive or defensive war, so of course they would have plans to invade Germany. Its a very popular theory, but there is almost no proof that they were planning to do it any time soon. In the end it was the Germans who did it first.

But go and punch someone in the face and then tell the police how he might or might not have been planning to punch you first, especially after you punched 3 other people and see how that works out for you

 

[Ming]

Hmh.. So the soviets would have been pretty much content with the borders pre-barbarossa and leave it at that? Sounds absurd, but then again I must stress that I'm based in my opinion and can't be objective here.

Absurd that they'd be content with half of Poland and the Baltic states? (Plus limbs of Finland and Romania)

What else would they want?

 

[WSnova]

Hmh.. So the soviets would have been pretty much content with the borders pre-barbarossa and leave it at that? Sounds absurd, but then again I must stress that I'm based in my opinion and can't be objective here.

So them being unhappy with their borders means that they will start a war? Does that justify the Germans invading 1st anyways? If anything with how the Germans invaded most of the continent it would be crazy for the Russians to not guard their own borders.

 

[Imgran]

There are, right now, somewhere deep in the vaults of the Pentagon, plans to attempt to detail what to do in the event of an alien invasion.

Armies make plans. It's part of how they keep busy in peacetime. Sometimes the plans eventually wind up being used, if they make sense or are the best available plan, such as Germany's Schieffen plan in WWI. A lot of times they just gather dust in the war office archives.

 

[BrutalDeluxe]

Chill, chill. As I've said before: I'm based on the matter. I cannot be objective. But still, the only source I have "stuka pilot" makes pretty clear that the Soviets were going to attack germany in a hastely manner.

I quote:

"On my very first sortie I notice a countless fortifications along the frontier. The fieldworks run deep into Russia for many hundreds of miles. They are partly positions still under construction. We fly over half-completed airfields; here a concerete runway is just being built; there a few aircraft are already standing on an aerodrome. For instance, on the road to Vitebsk along which our troops are advancing there is one of these half-finished airfields packed with Martin bombers. They must be short either of petrol or of crews. Flying in this way over one airfield after another, over one strongpoint after another, one reflects: "It is a good thing we struck" ... It looks as if the Soviets meant to build all these preparations up as a base for invasion against us. Whom else in the West could Russia have wanted to attack? If the Russians had completed their preparations there would not have been much hope of halting them anywhere. We are fighting in front of the spearhead of our armies; that is our task."

Typoes~~ not intended, but the text is 1:1 quoted etc.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I think I can see the point of this thread.

 

[BrutalDeluxe]

I think I can see the point of this thread.

Please do tell. I have no point and I am genuinely surprised that there actually isn't any documented files of the soviets planning to attack ger etc.

edit: the only reason I even registered here was because I figured I might get less trolling and more sophisticated guesses or whatnot. And this forum delivered :3

ps. thank you to all of you guys who bothered

 

[CruelDwarf]

It looks as if the Soviets meant to build all these preparations up as a base for invasion against us. Whom else in the West could Russia have wanted to attack? If the Russians had completed their preparations there would not have been much hope of halting them anywhere. We are fighting in front of the spearhead of our armies; that is our task.

You need airfields for defense as much you need them for attack. Most aircrafts were notoriously short-legged at the time. In fact soviets started massive reconstruction programm in the spring of 1941 - to build concrete strips on airfields in western military district just because it was impossible to train pilots and maintain flights in the spring and summer months without it.

 

[BrutalDeluxe]

And this is the point where I need more information on the soviet's defensive fighter planes of that era and if indeed they needed airfields that close to the 'borber'


e: "border" obviously, also my quote pretty much serves myself: the fortifications were half finished, airfields too. Funny feeling, serving oneself.

e2: but then again ofcourse not.

 

[George Parr]

One thing to keep in mind is that the Soviets never positioned themselves in a way that would have allowed any offense to happen. Neither did they really take the best defensive positions. Instead they wen with a "look, we are here" approach. Generally you wouldn't want the enemy to know how you set up defensively, because if he knows all that your defense is in all sorts of trouble. But in this case, the entire point of the setup was to show the Germans that there were plenty of troops around. Not to appear as a threat, but to deter Germany from attacking.

Oddly enough, in this case it might actually have played into the cards of Germany, because they wanted the Red army to be as close to the front as possible, so they could destroy it in its entirety before any troops could escape into the depths of Russia. Which means that seeing all these troops wouldn't deter an attack at all.