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Thrake

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As a player, you do that?!

As a vassal, I just appropriate land until I'm stronger than my liege, and then overthrow him.
Strengthening the council doesn't just weaken the liege, it weakens the title itself, so when you do finally take power, you inherit a hamstrung title,

Also a weak title/liege is bad for vassals, as it invites invasion from heathen neighbours.
Overthrowing a King without weakening the realm in the mean time is the ideal, and a strong council is completely counter to that.

It's not like vassals couldn't keep their liege in check prior to Conclave's council mechanics; there's still the tyranny cost of unjustified revocation/imprisonment etc protecting the vassals as a collective.

Well... I just keep empowered council as the liege. I rather have to bribe occasionally to have what I want done than fight wars that will cost me money anyway, waste levies and time. Besides, let's face it, my ability to expand is more constrained by claims than anything else, and claims take time to forge. So, I'm kind of a bored AI that has nothing better to do than plot against his liege. Other factions are pretty pointless (I don't care about who sits on the throne if he's of my religion...).
 

TehJumpingJawa

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Well... I just keep empowered council as the liege. I rather have to bribe occasionally to have what I want done than fight wars that will cost me money anyway, waste levies and time. Besides, let's face it, my ability to expand is more constrained by claims than anything else, and claims take time to forge. So, I'm kind of a bored AI that has nothing better to do than plot against his liege. Other factions are pretty pointless (I don't care about who sits on the throne if he's of my religion...).

Fabricate claims?!?
Whatever would you do that for? This isn't EU4!
 

Xinkc

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I think part of the problem is actually something that I don't see discussed often. It isn't so much vassals being angry so much as the reasons... I think the game does a poor job with taxes, historically one of the largest reasons for conflict within a government. If they made more of your income come from your realm rather than demense, and then made the tax rate affect the lesser lords incomes as well, then I think we'd see a much more legitimate series of conflicts than 9000 increase council power fights. Combine this with higher upkeep for standing troops and I think we'd start to see more legitimate conflicts that more accurately resemble historical ones.

Just a thought

Interestingly enough, unless something changed in the last major patch that I'm unaware of, feudal vassals prefer tax shifted obligation compared to levie shifted.

According to developers, this is working as intended. Since they believe players cannot ever be frustrated by losing rebellions, factions will only revolt to bother, never to win.

That's frustrating especially given that they just produced a DLC that makes people flat out die more often. It would be nice if I had to do some form of actual realm management because vassal factions were a threat most of the time (only insanely large factions of certain types have a real potential to hurt). This includes, not only an accurate assessment of rebellion strength vs my own after they leave but also allowing outside allies to be called in on the rebels side depending upon the opinion of both sides' leaders and the faction.

Which brings me to how I miss pre-Conclave alliance calls. Screw up and get a massive rebellion? Just call in your allies, they can't reject it.

The one thing that genuinely needs changing is the current block on switching sides during wars. And that works both ways- as King, you should be able to bribe opponents back to you in the middle of a war, particularly with the promise of land or marriage (or favours, etc etc). Or the promise of reducing taxes, or anything else that might bring people back to the fold- at the cost of prestige, perhaps.

Likewise, if the rebellion is sieging my castle and likely to win, I should have some way to surrender and join them, even if there's a massive prestige loss. History's full of turncoats and traitors, and I want to be one of them.

Those buttons are the single thing that upsets me the most in CK2, much like the offer loan option in EU4. At least remove the damn buttons if the mechanic isn't going to be functional for the most commonly played game mode.
 

Thrake

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aono

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Interestingly enough, unless something changed in the last major patch that I'm unaware of, feudal vassals prefer tax shifted obligation compared to levie shifted.
That's right. Feudals prefer to give out money (scutage), not military power.
Merchants prefer quite opposite.
 
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kmh42

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The only thing I have a problem with this faction is their petty stärke
Its not difficult though is the thing, it is for the first time you encounter it I suppose until you realize it can be horribly abused. With the bare minimum in council laws (War Dec only) you can just stack a bunch of loyalists on the council and always make sure Council Power revolts hit at 100-150% which is 40-50% of the 'true' realm power, and easily beat by a single mercenary addition. Ransoms then make it so you'll often double your investment if not more when you factor in siege gold, additional ransoms and prestige if your tribal. Sometimes piety too.

Council Power revolts have inadvertantly led to opening up a NK-Lite playstile where every 10 years you manipulate the council in such a way to your vassals get juuuust enough power to revolt, revolt, lose, get ransomed, and in 10 years do it all over again. If you ever need stability for a long period of time, you can just revoke and give it to new folks who'll love you until they die. You can optimize even further by giving giving consistently 'problematic' duke vassals that hate you titular King titles or better viceroyalties. Republics in particular are also fantastic for abuse since they have nice easily assaulted holdings for warscore and siege gold. For Tribals its arguably even better to do this (Though harder to set up) since you also get prestige and sometimes piety, which translates directly into more and importantly, cheap soldiers to spam in your wars of conquest.

What makes this possible, Vassals favoring Council Power factions too heavily to try and force conclave mechanics and the new combat system which makes combat losses in battle miniscule, so you never really lose anything besides time which is much less valuable ever since Defensive pacts got implemented since you've got plenty of time between threat cooldowns to trick your vassals into revolting so you can fill your coffers.
The only solution would be to make faction much stronger. But how should this be done? And imagine how many people are complaining afterwords.
 

TheDungen

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Well I don't mind that they faction even of they like you, I dislike that they faction when they really have little to fain by doing so. Why would a ton of small vassals who know they'll never be on the council fight and die to increase the power of the council? Instead they should watch as the more powerful vassals try and fail and then use their weakened state to increase their own power in the realm.
In most realms the monarch ruled by playing the low and high nobility against each other so this all vassals are against the liege thing that ck2 has going on is simply wrong.
There should be two sliders, centralisation, which gather power to the government, and council power which determines if that power is with the monarch or the council. The monarch want to keep the centralisation high and the council power low, the council want them both high and the lower nobles want centralisation low and if they can't get it at least the council power low too.
 
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Kumicho

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The one thing that genuinely needs changing is the current block on switching sides during wars. And that works both ways- as King, you should be able to bribe opponents back to you in the middle of a war, particularly with the promise of land or marriage (or favours, etc etc). Or the promise of reducing taxes, or anything else that might bring people back to the fold- at the cost of prestige, perhaps.

Likewise, if the rebellion is sieging my castle and likely to win, I should have some way to surrender and join them, even if there's a massive prestige loss. History's full of turncoats and traitors, and I want to be one of them.

For a short period of time this was actually the case... (sort of) If you were rebelling you could call other vassals to war at any time, and combined with the "raised levies" penalty led to some very, very interesting wars. One memorable one was where I'd controlled the ERE and most of the Mediterranean, when a good-sized revolt broke out. Since I had my main army right offshore, I moved it in and got hit with the "magical troops flocking to the banner" of my enemy, which wiped out my main force. That led to a decade-long back and forth civil war, as I tried to crush the enemy while my own forces would slowly defect to the other side due to raised levy penalties getting higher and higher.

It was GLORIOUS. But I'd love to see that brought back (calling other vassals to war), as that meant that all revolts, and all negative opinions were dangerous.
 
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Hector of Troy

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That's frustrating especially given that they just produced a DLC that makes people flat out die more often. It would be nice if I had to do some form of actual realm management because vassal factions were a threat most of the time (only insanely large factions of certain types have a real potential to hurt). This includes, not only an accurate assessment of rebellion strength vs my own after they leave but also allowing outside allies to be called in on the rebels side depending upon the opinion of both sides' leaders and the faction.

Which brings me to how I miss pre-Conclave alliance calls. Screw up and get a massive rebellion? Just call in your allies, they can't reject it.


Agreed. Unfortunately, the developers seem to have their minds set against the notion of making CK2 rebellions and realm stability a challenging experience. I and many others have suggested that the pre-ROI faction system should make a revival as a ruleset option, for those who wanted to have it enabled.

Consider trying mods. AGOT, CK2+ and HIP are all excellent choices in my opinion.
 
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dragoon9105

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Quoting the wrong person there, that'd be Xinkc your looking for.

I like Conclave's alliance system, though like everything with conclave from the Child education to New Factions to the Council its very restrictive and arbitrary and doesn't leave much freedom for the player. If alliance with say france also gave an alliance with all close relative members of the ruling dynasty so brothers, uncles and cousins stood an actual chance in usurping the throne via foreign support if they were liked better then you'd have taken a good aspect of the old alliance system that was lost.
 

justadude

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The implementation is horrible. I deactivated Conclave because of it. I get that a faction may pop up and take action without warning (the faction screen is empty and a popup appears along with a faction with 9 backers for council power) right at the start of a game ie you have to give in. It is completely random most of the time. Opinions of all backers can be 80+ and the realm is prospering. The worst thing is the frequency with which it occurs.
 

Jorlem

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This is part of why I made this suggestion. If factions had other things they could threaten the liege with besides war, it would make dealing with factions a lot less aggravating.
 
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