Council members not voting? (on Free Investiture)

[TehJumpingJawa]

Twice now, I, as King of Wales, have pushed for Free Investiture.

My council comprises 1 Loyalist, 4 Pragmatists, and 1 Glory Hound.

The vote starts out: 1 / 0 / 6

and just sits there.... until a few weeks/months pass, then the vote fails (though nowhere does it tell me the actual result of the vote?!)
:edit:
Just spotted in the log, it does mention vote rejections (though only the 1st 3, which isn't enough for a majority)

I've not played Conclave before, is this how it's supposed to behave?
How do I know which way a council member is going to vote?
Do I have to dole out favours to 50% of the council, to get them to even participate with the vote?

Why isn't the Loyalist supporting it?
Why aren't the religious Councillors supporting it? After all they'd like me more after enacting it (+10 rep) so surely they should be in favour?
Why aren't the Feudal rulers supporting it? Their religious vassals will like them more, likely increasing their income!
Why isn't the Jewish Chancellor supporting it?

 

[Matthias_Wlkp]

What I seen happening, is when you start a vote which is 50/50 with your vote being the tie breaker, one of the opponents buys favor on one of the supporters making the vote fail. Happened to me twice yesterday...

 

[Asiak]

You could look into the code and find the reasons for each.

And chances are a player versed in what traits and factors go into determining council positions may come in here and give those reasons. But that player is not I.

Generally though yes that is how they behave even if they are not malcontent depending on the issue. I never assume I will pass anything without some finagling.

Not anything, not by default. There are some things that they will support (though I don't remember what) but generally on any given mixed council no I would assume they would all oppose me just because nothing is free in this world.

It does say in the tooltip of the laws the expected and usually correct stances of everyone on the council.

The strategic removal or adding to the council right before a vote can be good just don't get carried away replacing the whole thing.

But after that you need a majority. Request Council support can be used to give them a favor in exchange for support. Or you can buy a favor from them and call it in for support.

Both should be used but really doing it through buying a favor is better if you have the cash. This gets the support needed whereas request council support gives them leverage to force you to do things later down the line.

Truth be told though your vassals may just be rightly scared of the Pope. Although I do think they still favor free investiture as feudals. The Pope has been made a bit more prickly with 2.6, he may excommunicate you if you have free investiture and refuse to change it.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

Right...... I can see now why some people dislike Conclave.
The mechanics are good; they're just opaque, and poorly explained.

Surely there should be some indicators as to which direction each member will vote?
Currently I've got a Loyalist Bishop with 100 rep towards me voting against me for a law change that will improve his opinion of me?!?!?!

At the very least there needs to be some kind of interface showing you which direction each member voted, and reasoning?
Having to crawl through the event log for incomplete information seems like it's simply unfinished.

Also, what determines whether a council member will be Loyalist/Pragmatist/Glory Hound/Zealot/Malcontent? Traits? opinion of the ruler? current personal ambition?
Seems like another black box.


On a related note, can spying on someone (intrigue focus) lead to blackmail material, that can be exchanged for a favor?
"Vote for this, or I'll tell everyone you're a possessed demon worshipping homosexual who bathes in virgin's blood".

 

[Matthias_Wlkp]

Currently I've got a Loyalist Bishop with 100 rep towards me voting against me for a law change that will improve his opinion of me?!?!?!

Probably he is returning a favor to another Councillor, who is against.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

Probably he is returning a favor to another Councillor, who is against.

It'd show that on the council screen though, wouldn't it?

It didn't :|

 

[thevmag]

Even before Conclave, I'd have votes sit around for a few years while a couple of bishops remain undecided until bribed. This time, the pool of undecideds shrunk from as many baron-level vassals as you have to roughly 7. Just like pre-Conclave, the udnecideds are perfectly willing to sit around and wait for you to pay them one way or another.

Before starting a vote, pay attention to who it says is For, Against or Undecided. A lot of time, its down to their affinity and whether or not they like you or owe someone a favour. Plenty of times, councilors simply have zero opinion one way or another and wait until either For or Against has greater diplomatic pull.


To combat this:
Load up you council with people who either love you, or harmless people that you can ask council support from but cannot take advantage of their favours.

 

[Bernard95]

If you hover over the law, the tooltip will tell you how everyone is going to vote. Most of the time if you want your Council to cooperate with you, you pretty much have to trick them by asking for council support before announcing the law change. One better if you switch out your council with courtiers and barons temporarily who are unlikely to ever call in their favor.

While it totally goes against the spirit of the DLC, the best thing you can do is start with an unempowered council and stick with it until you're like empire-tier. If they get ticked off upon succession, the worst they can do is ask for empowerment then you trick them again into going back to unempowered once the cooldown is up. Admittedly it's gamey, but you really can't afford to give them too many rights. War declaration is one thing once you're an empire, but when you get beyond revocations and imprisonment things start to go south quickly. Whatever you do though, the one right they absolutely cannot have is the right concerning title grants.